I'll answer the question. You want answers?
I think I'm entitled to— You want answers? I want the truth!
You can't handle the truth!
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be
guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You?
You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater
responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago
and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury
of not knowing what I know, that Santiago's death, while tragic,
probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque
and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at
parties, you want me on that wall. You need me
on that wall. We use words like
honor, Code loyalty. We use these
words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them
as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to
explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps
under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner
in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you and went
on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a
post Either way, I don't give a damn what you think
you are entitled to. Did you order the Code Red? I did the job.
Did you order the Code Red? You're goddamn right I did!
It's 2 Dads 1 Movie. It's the podcast where 2 middle-aged
dads sit around and shoot the shit about the movies of the '80s and '90s.
Here are your hosts, Steve Paulo and Nic Briana.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie.
I'm Steve. And I'm Nic. And today we are chatting about the 1992
Rob Reiner, Aaron Sorkin joint, A Few Good Men.
And Nic, you brought a few good men to the table for us. So why
don't you kick it off? Tell us a little bit about why you picked this
movie. Yeah, this is a movie I caught, you know, high school,
probably when it was released on TV. This was a frequent, you know,
even though it's an R-rated movie, this was a good USA TNT
kind of rewatchable thing. So you'd see it a lot, you'd see bits and
pieces of it. Uh, it definitely captured me. I mean, the courtroom drama,
it does it about as good as any movie does. Yeah. And there's
so many good stars in this film, it's even hard to say
it. Like, when you're trying to think in your head, you're forgetting 3 or 4
of them because you just can't hold that many names in your
head necessarily. Yeah. Um, so it was always one that stuck with me.
Uh, really fun. Very dramatic, very different than a lot of the films
we've done where we've done a lot that were kind of you know environment based
and action and stuff. This is definitely just a dialogue movie, and and
it really grabs you. So I think this is a lot of fun. The other
thing is that this movie is an all-time favorite of my wife
Jeannie, who's joining us here on the podcast today. There's another person
in the room. She definitely influenced the choice. So it's it's one of her faves
as well. Welcome, Jeannie. Hello. Thank you for having me. Thank you for
joining us. That's awesome. We've never had another guest on a show besides
Nic and I, so consider it an honor. I do.
Absolutely wonderful. Cool. Yeah, for myself,
actually, no, wait a minute, stop. I shouldn't go there. Jeanie,
why did you pressure Nic and force him to pick this movie this week?
What's the deal there? I love this movie.
Good. It's— I saw it when I was, you know,
14 or something, and I just It's just so
good. Every time it's on TV, you stop, or I stop anyway.
I would always watch it. Tom Cruise,
Scientology stuff, whatever. I love him. He's such a good actor,
especially '80s and '90s movies. Tom Cruise, love him.
It's just so good. I just love it. So thank you for doing it.
Yeah, absolutely. I love this movie too. So thank you both so much
for for making me watch it this week. That was wonderful.
I am a huge. like nerd for dialogue
and character-driven, you know, movies. And I was a stage actor for many years.
And so Aaron Sorkin hits all the fucking buttons for me, all the right notes.
And this is one of— this is probably my fa— no, this is my second
favorite Aaron Sorkin film. The American President
is, in my opinion, the best movie he ever made. I like that one too.
It's really fantastic. And then obviously West Wing, love The West Wing.
You know, I've seen so much of his stuff, Sorkin stuff on TV, and it's
all great. And I do love— we were talking a little bit when we announced
this last week Last week, uh, for our So I Met Your Axe Murderer episode,
we talked about this one at the end. And, uh, I mentioned, of course,
you know, it says at the beginning, but this is based off of a play.
And it's got that vibe of like limited number of, uh,
of locations, very dialogue-driven, very character-driven.
You know, there's never— there's not like an action scene or anything remotely like
an action scene anywhere in this movie. No, sometimes they're showing things that
they're describing like in a flashback thing that wouldn't appear
in a play. But yeah, it is very much like what the characters are saying,
that's the important thing. Exactly. So yeah, very excited. This is one that
I have loved. It sounds like just like you two have for years and years.
So very excited to chat about it. Let's jump into the facts on
A Few Good Men. The film A Few Good Men was released on December 11th,
1992, the day before my 13th birthday, which is— All right.
Just a fun little thing. With an R rating, a running time of 138 minutes,
which puts it kind of high up on our list of movie length there.
Directed by Rob Reiner and written by Aaron Sorkin, A Few Good Men stars
Tom Cruise, Jack Nicholson, and Demi Moore, and like,
a dozen other people you would be good to point out. Yes. Uh,
scores: Rotten Tomatoes, 85% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, nice solid
score. IMDb, a 7.8, very, very good. Um, the rare
Siskel and Ebert split decision that doesn't go the way it normally does.
This was a thumbs up from Gene Siskel and a thumbs down from Roger Ebert,
which is— I don't know what you're looking at, Rog. Yeah, like he
would have been with us here. Maybe Tom Cruise has too threatening of a jawline.
That might be it. That's true, especially that man. Yeah. But no,
normally Siskel's the putz and Ebert's the homie, and it's flip-flopped here. Yeah. So,
oh well. Lots of awards activity on this. Not a lot
of wins. Really one kind of major win I could find, but tons of nominations.
This was nominated for 4 Oscars in 1993,
including Best Picture, Best Supporting Actor for Jack Nicholson, Best Sound,
and Best Film Editing. At the 1993 Golden Globes, it was nominated
for Best Picture Drama, Best Director, Best Lead Actor in a
Drama for Cruise, Best Supporting Actor in a Drama for Nicholson and Best Screenplay for
Sorkin. At the 1993 MTV Movie Awards, its one kind of major win was Best
Movie of the Year at the 19— at the MTV Movie Awards that year.
But it was also nominated for Best Female Performance for Demi Moore.
Both, both Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson were nominated for Best Male Performance.
Cruise was also nominated for Most Desirable Male, while Nicholson also
netted a nomination for Best Villain. All right. On a $40 million budget,
which I feel like went half Or more to the cast.
It earned $243.2 million at the
box office, 6 times what it cost. So by all measures,
an absolute smash hit. And that, uh, those are
the facts on A Few Good Men. All right, let's jump
in. Yeah, let's get it started. So, uh, we're kicking
off, we're in, uh, the U.S. military base at Guantanamo Bay
at night. There's very ominous music playing, and we kind of see
a couple of, uh, a couple soldiers there in the shadows. who grab a 3rd
soldier out of his bunk. And, uh, and they start, you know, they grab
him, they, uh, shove a rag in his mouth, they duct tape around
his head and stuff. And, you know, they're really roughing him up. So we
get that very, like, intense scene to kick us off. We don't get a resolution
to it. They're just like, they grab this guy. They're fucking that boy up.
And then, uh, and then it flashes to an American flag
and then, like, the crispiest dressed military people I've ever
seen. Doing the coolest. This is like the Marines color guard or something like that,
or it is called the Marine Silent Drill Patrol. Okay,
or platoon rather. Excuse me, the Marine Silent Drill Platoon. The silent drill
is the name of that activity where they're spinning the rifles and stomping
and doing the different kind of choreographed things. The reason it's called silent drill is
that there are no instructions barked by anyone. Like a lot of times when soldiers
drill, they're being led by like a drill sergeant or something, right? You know,
oop, oop, oop, like all that stuff. So there's no vocal indicators
of sequencing or synchronicity in the silent drill. It just has to
be choreographed and practiced so much that they're able to just do it. And the
official kind of, you know, there is an ultimate
sort of level of this, which is to be assigned to the Marine Silent Drill
Platoon. And that is literally who this is. These were not actors. These were not
people trained to do this. It would have taken way too long. Yeah. So they
got the real guys to come and do it. And it really is very cool.
It is really cool. Absolutely. Kind of a waste of like a skilled
military guy, though. You're like, hey, we could kill Osama bin Laden,
but our best guy's twirling a rifle right now. Wow. See, this just belies your
misunderstanding of the military, man. That was the Navy. Those were the SEALs.
Come on, man. These are the Marines. Anyway, so we are, yeah, we are at
the JAG Corps offices in Washington, D.C. The JAG Corps, the Navy
Judge Advocate General, which is basically the lawyers for like all the military practically.
And yeah, we're meeting, I think we initially meet Jo Galloway,
Lieutenant Commander Jo Galloway, played by Demi Moore. And she
is bringing to the attention of her superiors that something has happened at
Guantanamo Bay. Yes. And, uh, and she's kind of telling the
story. The information that she knows is there's been a, uh, a private who's
stationed there, uh, named, uh, Willie— William Santiago. Right.
Right. And, uh, and he's died, um, and they're
trying to investigate the circumstances around his death. And what she says is that,
you know, from what I hear, this sounds like a code red. It kind of
explains what that is, you know, that this is, uh, an unofficial
disciplinary technique that they would use in military circles
to kind of keep the soldiers in line. Like, it could never be signed off
on by the military officially, but this is like, you know,
we're the ones who do what you gotta do to get the job done kind
of shit, right? So, and, you know, this is upsetting. The brass
does not want to hear about this. Like, they— I don't want you to come
in my office talking about no code red. No, exactly. You know, so, uh,
so they don't want her involved in this very much. Well, it's funny because they
say like, you know, hey, uh, could you like leave the room or whatever?
She's like, well, I'd really rather not. He's like, well, I'd really like you to
leave so we can talk about you behind your back. At least he's honest to
her. And of course— and Jeanie, I want your opinion on this, he says,
you know, he tells— the commanding officer tells Joe,
well, the right man for the job will be assigned. I think it was a
very pointed way to say it. Yeah, sure,
absolutely. Well, G.I. Jane hadn't introduced the
concept of women in the military yet when this movie came out.
She'll get there eventually. Demi always leads the way.
Yeah, so, you know, they're kind of pushing her away from him. And now
we get, we get to We see Tom Cruise's character, right? Uh, Caffey.
And he is, uh, doing batting practice.
He's looking cool as hell, uh, hitting some BP out
to his softball teammates and everything. He's the defense attorney, right? Right. And I'm
assuming either the shortstop or the second baseman because he's— has to be, right?
He is very Dustin Pedroia-ish. Yeah, I was thinking, you know,
I was thinking David Eckstein, but yeah. So much grit, so much,
so much grit and hustle. Yeah, but he's out there practicing
basically. And he's bargaining for his client, like, as somebody
approaches him, right? Right, yeah, there's some other lawyer who I think is a guy
that we've seen in stuff too. I recognized it, but I didn't wanna like look
him up. But basically like, yeah, he like argues for,
you know, a plea deal and like, you know, a lesser sentence and all this
stuff. All I'll say though for sure is that Tom Cruise's swing
is dogshit. Like, he cannot hit for shit. Like, it is really quite
ugly. It is, you can see when someone swings a baseball bat whether they grew
up being yelled at at by somebody else's dad about how to swing better and
played a lot of Little League, or if you never got yelled at like that
as a kid. And I can tell that Tom Cruise was not yelled at when
it comes to a baseball diamond. Like, he— somebody needs to scream at that boy
much, much more vociferously about, like, not looking like a fucking hitching robot
while you swing. It's really bad. Oh, see, I did not notice that. Oh no,
it's bad. Are there any famous Scientologist athletes? I'd like to
know if they're— like, I don't really hear that much. They're mostly actors. You don't
get— you don't get a lot of, like, You know, too many— like, Trout is
a Scientologist or anything. Too many white pro athletes are like dyed-in-the-wool hunting
camo Christians, so it's kind of like hard for them to also be Scientologists.
So yeah, no room. I, I just worship gun Jesus.
Exactly. Um, so, so he ends up successfully—
what we see here is that Caffey is like successfully bargaining for his
client. He's quick and he's kind of known as the plea bargain guy,
right? Yes, right. So we get that laid out, uh,
Is this where we hear about Lionel Caffey, or is that a little later?
It's 'cause I wanna call out when that happens. A little later. Remind me when
we get there, 'cause Jesus Christ. Anyway, yes, but then we cut to
his superior, it seems, who is, all I know for sure is the guy who
betrayed Harrison Ford on Air Force One. Also Todd, the stepdad from Terminator
2. Oh, that's right, he is Todd. Stabbed through the throat while he's drinking milk
out of the carton. Wolfie's just fine, Wolfie's just fine.
But he's there, and so we meet Sam Weinberg, who works with
Danny Caffey. Caffey is Tom Cruise's character. Sam Weinberg is,
uh, Kevin Pollak. And we're told that he, you know,
like has a new baby. Oh, baby's gonna talk any day now, whatever. I think
they think the baby's under 1. I'm like, I mean, come on. Yeah, baby's not
talking at 1. What are you talking about? Look, parents, I will say this overall,
like, for your kid to officially talk, it needs to be able to be understood
by a stranger. Yes, exactly. Like, if you say like, oh yeah, he totally said
daddy, that's a dog. And it's like, no, he, he has a bubble coming out
of his mouth right now. He's not saying that shit yet. I understood my cat.
At times. Yeah, that doesn't mean anybody else does. It doesn't mean the cat can
talk. It just means I understood them. Like, yeah, yeah.
Um, so they're gonna get assigned to the case, and, and do not want to
be involved in this, really. He's just like, what the fuck? You're giving me this,
you know, murder case, or at least a case with a death on it,
right? Uh, he's like— he— and we find out Caffey, uh,
has been in the Navy for only 9 months. That's right. He's known for his
plea bargaining. Uh, you could tell he's very casual about what he does
because he's eating an apple in like the most arrogant way during this whole scene.
Yeah, I hated I hated his eating the
apple. I really just— it was so rude of him. Is there ever a
good point where— is there ever a good point on screen where you're hearing and
seeing someone eat? No. No. No. Yeah, I don't think that's ever— And no,
finish your apple before your interview. Just— this is— no, just finish it.
Yeah. And he spends half the time— he's meeting Jo, Demi Moore's character,
and he spends half the time asking if he's done something wrong. I'm like,
are you a child? Like, why do you keep asking that? Like, are you hitting
on her? Like, I don't get what's going on here. Like, Also, are there hair?
Maybe. Are there snacks in the military? It seems like it's it's pretty regimented,
right? I mean, he has a loose affiliation. He's not like a real like the
military. I would imagine if you're stationed at Guantanamo Bay or or maybe
on the fence line in South Korea, the DMZ. Yeah, probably not so much snacking,
crunching apples. You know, you're not bringing your your your you know happy Nature Valley
bar out with you because popcorn. Yeah, maybe less than. But if you're
at the if you're at the Jag Corps lawyers' offices in D.C.,
yeah, I don't think it matters. They probably got a vending machine or two.
You know, they get a bowl full of fruit. Yeah, exactly. So he's just grabbing
that. So basically they're getting information from Joe about
the situation that basically that she thinks that, you know, yes, the basically that
the Marines accused these guys, Dawson and Downey, Harold W.
Dawson and Loudon Downey, basically are not—
they're not challenging like the facts of what's going on, of what happened. Like what
happened happened. They do make mention, Joe does, of like there's a
medical examiner who, or a doctor or whatever, that's, you know, initially didn't say anything,
but then like hours after declaring the The
antecedent dead, like said there could have been poison, or they thought
that the cause of death included a poison element. Right? But it
came later, and it's sort of like whatever. And Dawson, Dawson, and I'm gonna say
Dawson and Donnie over and over again. But those two are your element,
Dawson. Those two are like, "No, we didn't like poison a rag.
That's crazy." This was like whatever. So you know, to her, this seems like a
very like there's a lot of nuance here. Like that we got to figure out
what's wrong. And all Kathy's hearing is like plea bargain. Yeah, I'll give him 12
years. It'll be fine. Because he doesn't even see this as, as like a dead
guy and 2 guys on trial. He's just like, oh, what,
that's normally 20 years? Yeah, I'll get you, I'll get you half that, and that
makes me awesome. Exactly right. That makes me good at my job. Yeah.
So, uh, we get kind of a cool scene. So, um, so Caffey
and Sam are gonna go off to Cuba. Yeah, because they've been assigned
to this case. They have to do some looking around, and then we get a,
uh, flashback where it's a voiceover of Santiago
reading this letter, right, that he had written to the top brass saying,
you know, I'm not safe here, like, I need to get out of here.
And indicating too that this is not the first time I've said this, like,
I'm trying to get out of here, uh, you know, I fear for my danger,
I'm not up to this. Also, there was an errant shot fired,
like, at the fence line that I have information about if you're able
to transfer me out. Yeah. Uh, and we get this whole You know, we get
to see him kind of struggling during the runs and everything, and and being
brought from behind. So yeah, pretty pretty
effective, I think. And then we get a meeting of the of the brass,
which we get introduced to Colonel Jessup for the first time, Jack Nicholson,
who's there with Kiefer Sutherland, who is John
John Kendrick Jonathan Kendricks Kendrick Lieutenant Kendricks, and then and then
J.T. Walsh, Matthew McConaughey. Markinson.
Markinson. Colonel Markinson. He is a lieutenant colonel, so a step below
of the full bird colonel that Jessup is. But yeah, Colonel Markinson is
the XO, or executive officer, for Rifle Security Company
Windward there at Guantanamo Bay. And Jessup's in charge,
and then Kendrick is like next in line basically, which is like a little odd
because there's a lot of ranks between lieutenant colonel and lieutenant.
Like many, many. But supposedly he's the next sort of like,
I don't know, platoon or battalion. I can't remember which size is which, but like
he's in charge of Dawson and Downey and Santiago basically.
And so, you know, Jessup, you know, Markinson suggests,
hey, we should probably transfer him. Like, people are gonna find out there's a leak
and he's gonna get in trouble. Like, we should just go ahead and transfer him.
And Jessup's like, no, like, we should train him. Like, he makes an argument
that is clearly like a bullshit, I'm gonna make an argument because I've already decided
like what I think is right. But he kind of tries to make this argument
about like, well, if we ship him off to some other Marine base somewhere and
he's not up to par as a Marine, that just puts other people in danger
and we are not doing our jobs to train him if we do that,
which is— Which is, I mean, he's kind of making like the pedophile priest
argument. A little bit. Like, look, Santiago, there's a million things he could do in
the Marines. The Marines do a ton of things, so he doesn't have to be
at the like highest leverage position, right? You know, so yeah, there's plenty
of shit he could fucking do. Although I think enlisted Marines are pretty generally riflemen,
I think though. Like, I think it's officers, it's a different thing. But like,
there is kind of a thing where there is a base level of— he probably
shouldn't be a Marine. Like, to be totally honest, Willie Santiago probably should go home.
Yeah, he should probably be discharged and sent home. He probably shouldn't be a U.S.
Marine. And that sucks. What he shouldn't be is fucking killed for it.
So, like, there is that. But yeah, so basically Jessup decides,
no, Santiago stays. And then we get this sort of, like, struggle moment between Jessup
and Markinson where, you know, they— he gives— Jessup gives us a little background about,
like, oh, we came up together through the, you know, academy and through whatever.
We got commissioned together. And yet I've risen in the ranks faster.
Honestly, not that much. It's not like the dude's still, like, Lieutenant Commander Markinson.
He's fucking Lieutenant Colonel Markinson. Like, he's right there, you know? Yeah. But he's like,
you know, if that's a problem for you, like, I'm so sorry, you know,
all that. that shit. But basically we get the idea Markinson's got
a little bit of scruples, Jessup has fucking none, and that's the kind
of struggle between those 2 officers on base. And,
and what we're left with is the decision is Jessup
doesn't want him transferred out of there. He will stay. So, yep. And, and he
reprimands Markinson for questioning his authority in front of Kiefer,
which you don't do that. No, I mean, I know that. I'm not in the
Marines. I know you don't do that. Have Kiefer Sutherland's ears always looked that fucked
up, or does he just usually have longer hair? Because they look fucked up in
this movie. Think they're always that way. I would assume they probably have to be,
but I guess he just has longer hair and other because it's really high and
tight. He's got like completely shaved sides. You know the real buzz cut, but they're
like very oddly folded or something. Something about dad had those
ears too. Really? Okay. Anything like just just big weird ears? Yeah. They must always
have longer hair because I've never noticed it on any of the. Yeah. I can
absolutely have for Sutherland ears now. It's like
the opposite of cauliflower ears. They look like pasted down instead of like bulky up.
Yeah. Um, so we, we kind
of flash back to the present. Okay, we've got, we got Dawson and Downey,
who are the 2 Marines that are arrested, and they're in cuffs. They're being taken
out of, you know, they've arrived in DC to meet their lawyer.
Dawson is, um, like higher ranking
than Downey, right? Corporal. Yeah, so he's, he's like sees over this other
guy. He's more with it. He's more calm. He's more like
just dealing with what's happening. And Downey is very much like what you'd
expect to be like a young kid who's in the military, and he's like,
oh gee whiz, what's happening here? Well, and Dawson also clearly like is just
smarter. Like Dawson as a person clearly has like a higher IQ than Downey.
Yeah, Downey seems like a dummy. He needs help, you know,
like just kind of even to understand what's going on. And he's clearly
latched on to his lance corporal. It would be like somebody that he would take
orders from and look up to. And has taken on to like kind of
being with him and like following his lead. And there's nothing
inherently wrong with that, Boy Downey really does not know what's happening to him at
all in this. It is almost like he's almost like unfit for trial in
a way. Like it's very, very close. He really doesn't. If you if
you make that, if you separate the two guys, oh yeah. And that's the thing
too is actually when we get to the end of it, like Downey really shouldn't.
Nothing should happen to Downey at the end. We'll get there. But like I'm actually
fucking real bad for that guy. Anyway, so yeah. So they're there.
They arrive and they. They meet. Oh, we get a little— we get more softball,
basically. We go back to the softball field. Tom Cruise is, you know, Danny Caffey
is playing softball again, practicing. And this time Joe shows up to be more,
and she's like, why are you here on the softball field and your clients
are sitting in a jail cell? Like, they arrived this morning, they're just waiting for
their lawyer, and you're here, you know? And he— and he says, we need to
practice. There's a lot of flirting, basically, is all it really is. Yeah, yeah.
So he's good. He fires off some good jokes. And then I like that,
you know, he's telling her, like, when he'll make a joke, he'll be like,
That was a good one. You got to admit, he's very confident
here. This is good. He might negotiate himself a little plea bargain into her pants
before this thing is— Maybe. Let's ask Jeanie. Is there— is there anything sexier than
a man telling you you should laugh?
No. Keep going.
I just thought that's what everybody wants. Everyone wants to hear is like, hey,
that was funny. Yeah, people don't get this. When I don't naturally laugh,
I love when someone tells me I should be laughing. It's like
all the best jokes have to be explained. Everybody knows that. Yeah, totally. The explanation
is kind of the funniest part of this joke. Yeah.
So then Demi, and she's talking about,
uh, she knows a lot about Caffey. Yeah.
So she's rattling off like a Nardwuar level of knowledge
about his life, which is really funny. Um,
and she's kind of telling him like, yeah, she is very
stalkerish. Yeah, it's odd that she goes home and just
studies his trash, you know, when he's getting good at softball. So this
is when we learn about Lionel Caffey, right? Yeah, his father. So his father was
a Judge Advocate General lawyer, eventually the Attorney General,
also Harvard Law School. Like, so basically Caffey's following— so this
is what I realized watching this this time. I'd never noticed this before, but Daniel
Caffey, Danny Caffey, is the nerdy Pete Maverick Mitchell.
Hmm. The characters have the exact same wound.
Pete Mitchell's father, Duke Mitchell, was a fantastically celebrated
naval aviator. And so Pete Mitchell becomes a naval aviator, constantly trying
to live up to his father's, you know, history and resume. Same thing.
Lionel Caffey is a hugely celebrated JAG lawyer and eventually the Attorney
General of the United States. And so Danny Caffey, you know, goes into being a
JAG lawyer as well and constantly living up to this, like, standard that his dead
father set. So this concept of Tom Cruise playing these
like characters with dead fathers who did the exact same job they
now do, but they're trying to live up, like it's not unique to this movie
or to Top Gun. I looked really hard to find another one, I couldn't.
I really wanted there to be a third example. The closest is The Color of
Money, but that's a mentorship, not a father thing. And, you know, I don't
know, maybe Cole Trickle had a dead dad, I don't remember. But anyway, so yeah,
I just thought it was really interesting that these 2 characters have the exact same
wound. Yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah, and and she
knows so she knows all about she kind of knows then which buttons she can
push on him like what's going to activate him. Yeah. And and Joe asks him
she knows what a code red is. Yeah. And you know
then we get we get Caffey asking the Marines about the code red. That's right.
He's asking the Dawson and Downey. Yeah. And their
explanation of I mean again like Dawson is just so like yeah he
gives you exactly what you are looking for. Like textbook definition. Yeah. The answer is
perfect. And they weren't squirrely about it at all. No. Because they weren't like oh
we're not supposed to talk about that. Like, these guys are pretty,
pretty solid. Like you said, they're not disputing the facts of the case the entire
time. And it seems like every, uh, sort of, you know, rank-and-file, like, enlisted member
who talks about code reds, they, they don't— there's never any,
uh, fear, or like, they never talk about them like they're a bad thing,
you know what I mean? It's like there's definitely no element of like, oh,
like the code red, oh, we don't do that. Like, we get officers that say,
oh yeah, yeah, that's not official, we never do that, we never order. But like,
all of the enlisted that say— that talk about this, they talk about it like
it's just another thing. It's perfectly normal. There's no weirdness about it. So the idea,
right, that they would view it as something that just gets done sometimes clearly,
you know, tracks with everything that we're hearing. Um, yeah. And, uh,
and, you know, they go to explain, uh, when they're telling
Kathy about what happened, they say, you know, we taped up his mouth, we gagged
him, and then we noticed he was like coughing and there was blood coming out,
so we untaped him and then we called the ambulance. So again, they didn't
leave this guy to die. They did a thing they thought was going to be
far less impactful than it was and then tried to, tried to save him at
the end. of it, right? Yeah. Um, yeah, they make a big point later about
Dawson and Downey calling the ambulance, that, that, you know, yeah, should matter, basically.
Uh, and, and they're asked why, you know, why was this done then? Yeah,
he's like, well, Santiago broke the chain of command. And, and then he gives,
uh, Caffey the whole unit, Corps, God, country. This is
our code, right? That the priorities that you have to have as a Marine is
your unit, the Marine Corps, God, and then your country, right?
And, uh, and Caffey is not into any
of it. No, because he doesn't really speak a language of like nuance. Like,
he's just like, okay, how— what, what can I do to chisel exactly
3 years off the proposed sentence here? That's all he wants to do.
Yeah. Um, so he doesn't like that. So these guys are at each other.
Like, Dawson and Caffey are not, not cool with each other here.
Absolutely. Um, so next move Caffey has to make is go talk to Jack
Ross, who is the prosecuting attorney for this, for the government. Played by Kevin Bacon,
who we welcome back to the podcast. And Bacon right
off the bat offers 12 years,
right? Right off the bat offers 12 years. And then before,
you know, and then basically Sam's like, well, or Danny's like, well, I'm gonna go
to Cuba and I'm gonna talk to the CEO out there and I'll let you
know what I think or whatever. And he asks Ross, you know, you ever heard
of a code red? And Ross's demeanor changes significantly at this point. And he says
something about like, Uh, you know, Lieutenant Kendrick
told those men to not touch Santiago. And Caffey
kind of goes, huh, that's interesting information, right? Um, and I think, I think Ross
even offers like a shorter sentence, or maybe that's when he says 12. It's like
he kind of really kind of— I think from 20 to 12. That's maybe what
it was, right? And it's like without having to argue, which Caffey
sees as suspicious, appropriately.
Yeah, like they're very aware of the publicity that this, you know, they're not trying
to be like, we treat every single Marine the same because, you know,
we're all the same here. It's very much like, Okay, this is gonna
look very bad for us, so maybe these guys get a little less punishment for
doing what they did. So, so they're gonna go
to Cuba again and talk to everybody, but this time Joe's coming to
them. Yeah, and the way that Joe is able to kind of weasel her way
onto the case is she's been talking to Dawson and Downey and getting information.
And I guess Dawson, like, he's got a family and stuff. Downey only has
really one next of kin that they can identify, some aunt somewhere,
and Joe was able to like Get in enough that his family was able to
authorize her to be his attorney. Aunt Jenny decided that,
uh, you know, feel like— she said she feels like she's known me forever and
wants me to be Loudon's attorney. And so now she's officially on
the case. So, so just to make sure we're clear about the logistics here,
Caffey was assigned as lead counsel by division, which I guess is like
the head honcho bastards, whatever, with Sam as an assistant, uh,
assistant counsel. And then now that Joe is, is as part of,
you know, as Downey's attorney officially. She's also on the case. I think she was
trying to just be like an investigator, 'cause she's like internal affairs, basically. Yeah.
She's like an internal investigator. But now she has the right to actually like be
in the courtroom and like be everywhere that they are. And so that's how we
sort of have 3 attorneys all kind of working one case together, which I don't
think is all that common. I do remember there's a point, Caffey goes to talk
to Sam before they head off to Cuba. They're chatting for a bit, and he
mentions like Ross, you know, with the deal and then the code red. And,
you know, he's telling Sam how he thinks it's suspicious. And he's like, I never
mentioned Kendrick. Why do you mention Kendrick? And then Sam says, Hey, we're going to
Cuba. It's hot. Make sure you wear the whites. And he goes, I fucking hate
wearing the whites, man. He goes, it's like 100 degrees. Like, you better wear it,
you know? So I love, 'cause then when they all arrive in Cuba and get
off the plane, Sam and Caffey are wearing their whites and Joe is wearing much
more reasonable, like, tan khaki, you know, whatever. I think they call them like Class
Bs or something like that, like the other kind of uniform. And that's when they
meet Noah Wiley. That's right. Who's gonna give them a ride. Dr. Pitt himself.
That's right. Give him a ride to the— Dr. Robbie's gonna give him a ride
to the base. And he says, you might want to throw these camo jackets on.
The Cubans see somebody in a white uniform, they figure they might want to take
a shot. Yeah. And then they put their camo jackets
on, but they're still wearing the white hats. Yeah, I know, the hats. Yeah,
why? Yeah. Which is like, now you're just giving them a better headshot target,
right? Yeah, exactly. Also, give me the fucking statistics for how many times the Cubans
ever shot at an American soldier over that fence, please. Cannot be very many.
Cannot be many. So, so now we've got a meeting,
right? Yes. So we've got Caffey,
we've got Sam, we've got Joe, and they're gonna meet Jessup,
Markinson, and Kendrick. That's right. We've got kind of the, the big dogs who are
not on trial in this movie all meeting with each other. Yeah. Uh, and they
know— the, the military officers know Caffey's dad.
They know about him. He was Attorney General. Yeah. That's the deal.
Uh, and, and it's— again, this is a great part that gives you a lot
of information without explaining it. Yeah. The way that, uh,
Jessup, Jack Nicholson's character, talks about, oh, Lionel Caffey,
yeah, there's some, uh, rednecks who didn't want to let, uh, the school
get integrated down in your neck of the woods, Kendrick. Yeah.
And Kiefer Sutherland is just making white supremacist
face during that, dude. It is crazy good, like, how much
info you get without him specifically explaining any of
it. It was just like, oh, I know based on where you're from, like,
this This is something you did not like when it happened. You're Edward Norton in
American History X, the first half. Yeah, literally. The first half of the movie.
But I do love too, there's a great Nicholson line here where he's talking about
like Lionel Caffey. Oh, Lionel Caffey, yeah. You know, it's like, how is your father,
Danny? And he goes, oh, he died a few years ago. And he looks at
him and goes, don't I feel like a fucking asshole?
But they decide to give him a tour, right? And so Kendrick shows
them around and they go to Santiago's bunk and they're able to look around and
they think, you know, The pieces that we're supposed to kind of recognize here from
the scene is the bloodstains, like there's all over the pillow. Like, it's a lot
of blood. It was not like a simple thing, you know? And then of course,
Caffey looks in his footlocker in his closet and all of his stuff is lined
up. His clothes are all there. And he says, hey Sam, we should make sure
we get this, you know, back to Santiago's family. It's his personal private property or
whatever. There's tape. There's like police tape. Yeah. But it says
military police line, do not cross. That's right. I love that they have their own
tape. On the base,
like, would the non-military police have taping authority in
that area? Not in Cuba. Yeah, right. The Cuban police certainly don't.
I just love that. How much are we spending on custom yellow tape? I want
to see that line item. Each roll costs $500,000. Yeah, exactly.
It's the fucking military. Um, but then they decided— then they have lunch, and so
it's all 6 of them out, uh, you know, uh, out in the heat.
Apparently they keep talking about how hot it is, and yet we're gonna sit outside
to have lunch. Yeah, interesting choice. Um, and Jessup
tells them, A, that, you know, he told Kendrick
to tell the men not to touch Santiago after the letter was revealed.
And then he offered, you know, he transferred— put in an order to
transfer Santiago off base, and that he was scheduled to be transferred to the next
flight, which was at 0600 the next day when all this happened. And I love
when Caffey, you know, they get up to go— well, it's funny, they're gonna get
up to go, and Joe decides to really push a line of questioning that
pisses Jessup off. Mm-hmm. And it's clear neither Sam or Caffey wanted this to happen.
But she, you know, is feeling very like, I would not gonna fucking leave here
without getting some answers. Um, she doesn't actually get any because Jessup's
smart enough to not really tip his hat. It was a bad move. It was,
it was, it was certainly impulsive, it seemed, right? Yeah, not,
not well thought out. Exactly. And he— and everyone is trying to rush Joe.
I mean, how many times does this happen just in life where you're somewhere
and you're like, dude, we're all willing to let this go, but we have this
one fucking friend who I know is not gonna let it go? And they're making
us embarrassed here. So Jo— and Jo is doing a hell of a job.
She's the only one doing her job here, right?
But then, uh, Jessup changes the whole tone
of it where he's like completely disrespects her line of questioning and then just starts
talking about, uh, uh, you ever get a blowjob
from a commanding officer? Oh God. Ah, there's nothing better than that.
Oh, for me to do it, they have to elect a lady president. Like,
That's a, that's a hard-ass line. Yeah, it's, um, but man,
he flips on her. Like, they do not respect her at all.
Nope. No, it's fair. Jessup doesn't respect anybody. He extra,
extra disrespects her though. Like, when, uh,
right before this, I think when they're still looking at Santiago's room and
Caffey says to Kendrick, he says, uh, Lieutenant Kendrick, may I call
you John? He's like, no, you may not. I like— I loved how
Matty is there. And then he's like, oh, do you have any problem with me?
He's like, Nope. He's like, you know, every time us Marines got somewhere to go
fight, you Navy boys give us a ride. I like
the Navy. Um, but yeah, before they actually do leave,
uh, Caffey just very casually is kind of like, uh, I'll just need that,
uh, transfer order. You want to go ahead and send that over? That'd be great.
Could you send that to me? And he, you know, Jessup kind of flinches or
whatever, and he, of course, you know, but like, I mean, it takes a moment
and, and it's, you know, Caffey is gathering little bits of info that again,
we've talked a few times You know, recently on episodes of like, uh, movies doing
a good job of like planting things that, you know, the first time you
watch through you might notice, but you might also just kind of like dismiss.
Like they're not moments, but then when they come back later you're like,
oh shit, like they totally set that up. And this is kind of one of
those moments. Yeah. Um, which is great. Yeah, we get the
famous, uh, I eat breakfast 300 yards from 4,000
Cubans that are trained to kill me. And then he takes like the most satisfied
cigar puff I've ever seen. Yeah, it's a lot.
Nicholson is so good. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a real testament
to both the script and to Nicholson as an actor that we get such a
crystal clear view of who Nathan Jessop is in
not very much time, right? Like, even if you count the earlier scene he was
in, to this point, he's been on screen for like 6 or 7 of the
maybe 40 to 45 minutes into the movie we are. And we know exactly who
this man is. We know where he's been. We know where he's going. We know
what— we get a sense of what he's done, even if we're not 100% sure.
Like, we kind of feel like we know. Just such really great work, both,
uh, both in the writing and the acting. Yes, I think they have— all the
characters are kind of like that. Yeah, I mean, the main characters, I feel like
you get that with all of them. They're all just so good. Yeah,
dialogue, everything is just— yeah. Well, you can understand like the anxieties
of the legal team too. And, you know, like Sam having his kid, like they
just— they don't spend a lot of time, but they set him up as like,
this is his life and this is how he feels about the case early on.
Like Sam is not really psyched about defending these guys because
he's saying, like, they picked on a weaker kid, right? Yeah. So that's his position.
Painting the picture of everybody. I think, too, this is a thing where I know
you can obviously hear the difference when the characters talk because you're hearing the different
actors saying whatever. But there's this concept of if you're reading a screenplay, being able
to tell who's speaking without looking at the name, right? If you just— if you're
just given the lines of the different characters, you'd see how you'd be able to
tell them apart. And that's absolutely true, I think, of this. I think all,
you know, especially the characters we get a lot There is no way you would
mistake the, like, natural cadence and vocabulary choices
that, like, Jessup and Kendrick and Caffey and Sam and Joe use. They're all so
unique and different. Their styles are different and everything. And that's, again, that's the thing
that just, you know, Sorkin is among the best in the world,
in the history of cinema, at doing, is really differentiating his characters through
dialogue. Yeah. And this is a great example of it. So we
find out now we're at We're at Danny's house, and Joe is letting,
uh, Danny know that Markinson has disappeared. That's right. Right. So he was
a very important witness to our case, you know, and I don't know if he'd
even agreed yet, but just a guy that was very important to the situation.
And they had planned on talking to him more, for sure. They were like,
well, we're gonna interview him some more, because there was like a difference in the
way he reacted to like the way Kendrick and Jessup were. They spotted that.
Yeah. Yes. And, and one of those things where it's like, oh, this guy spent
25 years in Special Forces or whatever, like he's a ghost.
Like, he's not gonna— he's not gonna come back unless he wants to be seen.
And then I think Jo is— let's see. Well, this is when she actually
confirms she's officially on, is officially Downey's attorney. And, you know,
basically they, they go and they ask Dawson and Downey,
like, were you ordered to give a code red by Lieutenant Kendrick? And Dawson's like,
yes, we were. And he's like, did you fucking think of telling your lawyer that?
Like, he's like, you didn't ask. And it's like, true, but come
on, pretty important part of the story. Yeah, a little self-preservation instinct
would have helped Harold W. Dawson to at least say, like, yes, that was my
order. that was what happened. Yes, that's what a code red is. And oh,
by the way, my superior officer told me to do it. Yeah.
Yeah. He's not helping himself at all. I mean, maybe he's just a really intelligent
student of history and knew that the Nuremberg Defense just wasn't gonna help him out.
That might have been it. Uh, so now we're back with, uh,
we got Kevin Bacon, Ross, and, uh, and Caffey
were playing hoops together and kind of talking about the case. And this is where
Ross is kind of really affected by— he's been been pressured
by the brass that, look, we need this to not go to fucking trial is
what we need. So he's now offering 2 years,
uh, to, to Dawson and Downey. They'll be home in 6 months.
Yep, exactly. And what kind of fucking Kohl's pricing on a
prison sentence is that, by the way? It's interesting too, because if you're, you know,
the military prison is obviously by definition a federal, you know,
corrections outfit, right? And in federal, if you're a
civilian who commits a federal crime and goes to federal prison, there is no You
don't get out half the time. The parole doesn't work like that in federal crimes.
And yet in the military, they're like, it's not even half. You'll do like a
fourth of your time. It's like, why do you bother at that point? Yeah.
But I think it's partly maybe because the additional punishment is the dishonorable discharge.
So it's like, yeah, after you're done serving your time, now you're not only not
in the military, you'll never get a military pension. You'll never, you know, you get
stripped of any medals that you were awarded. Like all this kind of stuff when
you get dishonorably discharged. These guys are young though. It's like, oh, you're not gonna
get a pension for the year and a half you've been in already? Time served,
man. Do something else. Um, so, so the,
um, this is super exciting to Caffey. Yeah, he's like, 2 years,
fucking dude, I am the greatest lawyer that's ever lived. Check it out,
guys, listen to what I got for you. 2 years, you'll be out in 6
months. Yeah. And Dawson's just like, no, like, we can't take a deal. Like,
I am not gonna admit that I did something wrong. I'll stand there and whatever
consequences I face in trial, I'm there for, but I'm not going to I'm
not gonna admit to this, which is yeah, yeah. And Cap hates
this shit. He does. He can't deal. But it's like hard to argue against somebody
who's like, look, if I get wrongfully imprisoned, I will live with that
more easily than I will admitting to a crime I didn't commit. I get it.
Like I'm not saying that's the choice I would make, but I got kids.
That's right. I could be tough. Yeah. When you're in your early twenties and you
kind of you know your responsibilities pretty much don't extend beyond yourself. Like yeah,
I could see being somebody who's like, no fuck that. I'm not gonna. just cop
to something I didn't do. Sure, you know, especially someone who— like,
the Marine Corps is the thing that Hal values more, that Dawson values
more than anything else in the world. And there are definitely situations where,
like, your integrity is more important than your life, and you can decide where to
draw that line. So, I mean, he's already willing to die for whatever Marine Corps
shit he's doing. So, um, yeah, but fucking
Caffey is so pissed at this. Right. So he kind of ponders about it,
but then he does show up that next morning, right? It's like, like Sam and
Joe are waiting in the courthouse, and now— And the pretrial hearing's like about to
start. He walks in kind of at the— or the arraignment— he walks in at
the last minute. Yeah. So they enter their not guilty plea, and we've
got 3 weeks now until the trial begins. Yeah, exactly. Um, and then
I've got a note here, and you're gonna have to help me with this.
I literally don't know why I wrote this. Realizes he was set up. Yes.
So this is where— this is where Caffey is kind of like Oh my
God, they put me on this case because I'm inexperienced and I love to
plea bargain. Like, the fact that basically the
fact that they put me on the case makes me suspicious about the case.
Interesting. Because I am not the guy for it. Yeah, right. Like, they should have
a trial lawyer with like a lot more experience. Exactly. Like, if, if they didn't
want it to go a certain way, they would not have recommended me specifically for
this case. Yeah, it's getting more and more suspicious. Yeah. Yeah.
So he realizes, and then he's fired up, so he's like, all right, Here we
go, guys. We're gonna start working on this case at my apartment. That's right.
Every night, like, you know, 14-hour days, and all I have is Yoo-Hoo and
Cocoa Puffs. Oh, yeah. If you want anything else, bring it. I do— I kind
of feel like the real-life Tom Cruise had a stretch where, like,
that was all he ate. Like, I think he probably most of his life has
kind of one of those freak-ass, like, Tom Brady diets where he doesn't— well,
he'll eat, like, one strawberry a month or whatever. Like, non-inflammatory. Like, you gotta be
real careful about stuff. But I bet '80s Tom Cruise probably had a weird stretch
where it was like someone had to explain to him that like, oh, Yoo-Hoo is
actually not good for you. It's like, this stuff's amazing.
To be fair, Tom Cruise in the '80s while eating his Cocoa Puffs and drinking
his Yoo-Hoo with a nose like that, you know, was sniffing the freaking candy.
Like, I mean, that is a nose built for cocaine. So, but yeah, so,
so yeah, so they're starting, they're meeting at Kathy's apartment.
Sam and Danny are there first. And Sam kind of wants off the case.
He says, hey, we know with Joe on this now, like, are you sure you
need me still? And he's kind of like, look, like You're better at— he says
basically you're better at investigating and you're better at preparing a witness. So it's like,
what the fuck are you good for, Caffey? Like, you're not really good at any
of this stuff. I'm good at being the face of the trial team. I'm good.
I'm really good at having a dad who was attorney general once. I'm good at
name recognition. Exactly. Um, but he basically is like, why do you want off?
And this is kind of what you alluded to, you mentioned earlier, when he's like,
oh, you know, they were supposed to protect people like this. Like, he's a weaker
kid and they, regardless of like what happened, who told them, blah, blah, blah,
like they shouldn't have done this. And they, then they should know that they shouldn't
have done it. Yeah. Um, and then Joe shows up and they,
uh, it starts with Chinese food. Right out the package. There's a— well, there's a
real funny moment where she's like, I brought, uh, I brought paperwork and Chinese food.
I suggest we eat first. And there's this moment where we don't know if Sam
is about to, like, get up and say bye-bye. And he goes, got any kung
pao chicken? Oh, you know what? I'm with you, Kevin Paula. Kung pao chicken,
good as fuck. Yeah. Yeah, but I don't want someone else's— I mean,
just get a plate. I don't want someone else's filthy chopsticks going in and out
of it. Yeah, nobody's like a couple. They're not really that— I mean, it is
a little— yeah. Pre-COVID, guys. Come on. Yeah, chill out. Different world.
Different world. We get kind of a montage here, like a non-song
montage. Well, I think there's like maybe a score behind it. It's not like you
expect a pop song for a montage like this. You don't get one. Like,
yeah, we didn't get fucking Kenny Loggins to write a special
song for this part, you know? I thought we'd hear The Laws for a 4th
time. Yeah. So they're researching,
and they're doing witness coaching, and brainstorming, and giving each other pep talks.
And it's a really good montage. It is. Um, it doesn't, you know, it's not
cheesy in any way really. It's just very effective. And then just the end,
kind of like, all right, we're ready, we're ready to go, we're gonna kick ass.
And, uh, Caffey's like, we're gonna get creamed.
Like, because this whole time he thinks like, hey, I'm down for
this, but this is not gonna work for us. I mean, look, if you think
about it, right, their clients aren't even disputing the facts. So it's like they
have to accept that like their clients took actions, those actions led to a man
dying. And they're not disputing that. So that's gonna be a hard sell for
any lawyer. And now they're trying to kind of bring out this thing where they
are kind of using the Nuremberg defense. They're trying to go with the, I was
following orders, which, you know, does not have a crystal, you know,
a clean bill of sort of like supportive legal precedent.
You know what I mean? So that is definitely tough. I do love, I think
it's Sam suggests that he wears matching socks. Was that, make sure you wear matching
socks? It's like, it's just so weird. thing to say, but yeah,
very important. Oh wait, that's Joe after— Oh, is that Joe? That's right.
After he's— because she says, oh hey,
like she wants to talk to him, and then he goes on like, yeah,
I know you like me now. Like he does this whole thing about, you know,
and then she says that at the end. I think she's like, no, I was
just gonna say wear matching socks. Yeah, it's sort of like his— like he thinks
they've got a Sam and Diane going on, and it's like Diane disagrees, basically.
Exactly. Very funny stuff.
Um, and so now we're at the trial. Yeah. And the families
are in attendance there. Uh, the prosecutor,
Kevin Bacon Ross, has a sick flat top.
I mean, it's good. It is a strong— it's as high as a flat
top can be without like a certain amount of gel. Like, it's probably hairsprayed in
place at least, or a completely different ethnicity. Yeah, exactly. He's,
he's almost Kid 'n Play, uh, there. Um,
there's a jury. How do you get out of jury duty in a military
court? You don't. You can't just throw this thing away. I'm pretty sure they know
where you're at. I think that if you get— if you get called in,
first of all, it's like, is it even called in, or are they just like,
I'm bringing you now? Well, they did say something. They said something during the montage
about, about the composition of the jury and how they're, you know, it's 7 men,
uh, 7 men, 2 women, and neither of the women have children, which is a
bummer for us, but like, we've got to deal with it. Like, they were hoping
for mothers to be there because they can make the argument about like, you know,
Which is like, to me, that cuts both ways. Santiago had a mother too.
But, you know, they were— they thought they could use that. So clearly there was
some jury selection process that occurred. But maybe it's more random and/or
less with the lawyers involved. I don't know, 'cause I don't know much how court-martials
work. But it may not be a thing where they're spending, you know, days,
if not weeks, like interviewing and then dismissing and then doing whatever. I don't know.
But, you know, clearly we end up with this group. And it's like they even
say that, like, they're from the different branches. There's like, there's Navy, there's Army,
there's whatever. Yeah, there's a big variety. So I wonder, like, who's in the pool
And what can you get excused for? Because if it's like, hey, uh, Nic,
uh, I know you were planning on being on the front lines,
uh, in Iran in an unwinnable war, uh, this week, but we actually have a
jury, uh, duty if you want to go sit in a courtroom. It's like,
that sounds dope. I'd be willing to bet forward deployment is a way
out. Like, I think that probably negates— They're probably not yanking you back for it.
It's probably a lot of, like, officers there in DC, obviously, who are just
kind of like other sort of desk-type people. It's probably what it is, but yeah.
But yeah, so we get our— we get opening statements. So yeah, Ross, Jack Ross,
Kevin Bacon basically makes the argument. He basically does what he should as the prosecutor,
lays out the facts and says none of these facts are in dispute. Like,
like, you know, the attorney— the defense is not going to dispute anything
about what actually happened. What they're gonna say is that there's this thing called a
code red and that this meant this and this meant that, and that's all bull,
so ignore them or whatever. And then I think then we get— Caffey
does an opening statement too, right? Yeah. And I mean, kind of, uh,
saying what he's gonna demonstrate. And then, you know, these guys were
not to be touched. Yeah. Uh, and everything. So they were given
orders, and he starts bringing his witnesses up, right? Uh, this is where we see
Cuba Gooding Jr. Uh, oh yeah, we'll later see him in court
as O.J. in the O.J. miniseries about 20-something
years later. Uh, yeah, and, you know, he's testifying. Yep,
Santiago was— Santiago is not to be touched. And I guess they had
like 22 other witnesses that were going to say the same thing. Every member of
the squad. Yeah. Can we agree everyone's going to say the same shit? Like,
we don't need to go through this. Yeah. So some good, like, gamesmanship going
back and forth between Kevin Bacon and, and, uh, Tom Cruise. And when Bacon
gives his opening statement, he even does the thing where he's like, the defense is
gonna try to tell you that they were just following orders. And I, you know,
I, I love where he did that. So this, like, this back and forth between
the two of them is so, uh, enticing and it's so Yeah,
it really draws you in throughout this scene here.
And we get a little bit more of like a more prep montage, a little
bit. There's just like more kind of work that they're doing. And then we get
the doctor, and this is played by Christopher Guest. And he is,
you know, he's like a commander or something by rank, but he's the doctor that
actually, you know, declared Santiago dead and then did the examination.
And the key of this is that at like, what was it, like at 2:00
AM, he arrived and said that the cause of death was like inconclusive,
or it was, or they could claim that he could tell it was the lactic
acidosis, or whatever, but like the cause was inconclusive. Yeah. And then at 5
AM or 6 AM, 2 or 3 hours later, he's like, oh no, there was
poison that sped up the lactic acidosis process. And so
that's like a big thing that, you know, Caffey tries to like push on
is like, well, why was there a change? And like, you know, what else could
cause lactic acidosis to speed up? Right. Um, and actually
I think this is one of— this is one of 2 like witnesses that Caffey
has that he does a really kind of good job with. I think the very
end with Jessup is a little fantasy land that actually gets where he wants to
go. But this one's a really good one where he's like, well, aren't there,
you know, like there's— if you have a coronary condition, what would be some symptoms?
And he goes like, would it be like shortness of breath? Would it be like,
you know, fatigue? Would it be this? He goes, yes, of course, yes, of course,
whatever. And he's got the like report that this doctor did on Santiago that points
out complaints of these, you know, things. And he sticks by his guns and is
like, no, he got a clean bill of health. Like, so there's no— there's no
way he had this coronary thing you think he does. Yeah. And I don't think
that they initially nail it, right? You know, but then Jo
kind of screws it up even further. Absolutely. Yeah,
where she goes to, uh, she goes to object. Yes.
Right? And, uh, and the objection is not— is, is overruled.
Uh, and then she said— says it again. No, no, the defense
strenuously objects. It's like, I'm not a lawyer.
I took the LSATs. I didn't go to law school. That's, that's the extent of
my legal career, is like a fucking test on logic. I don't know shit.
I fucking know you can't, like, just— it doesn't add qualifiers
to it. You don't object more. It's not like a thing where
it's like, well, no, no, no, Your Honor, you didn't hear me. I really fucking
don't want this to happen. Yeah, I know, I fucking heard you. Uh, my clients
plead hella not guilty to the charges. Oh, in that case, case dismissed.
Um, yeah, and but the doctor is doing the thing where
He realizes his professional opinion is being called into question.
He either fucked up or lied. Yeah. And is just like saying,
no, fuck it. No, it is impossible. Yeah. The only way he could have died
is poison. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, yeah, that sucked. And there's definitely a
hit that we're taking as the defense team. Yeah. Um, let's see.
And Sam is— Sam is pissed, right? So again,
there's more of the stuff where Sam is still like— he's not sold
on protecting these guys or trying to defend him. He's like, they beat up on
a weakling. Like, none of this is changing how I feel about this. Yeah.
Sam Sam clearly, like, very much, uh, uh, you know,
kind of thinks of himself in many of the same ways as Santiago. Like,
he really, you know, relates to him, understands where, like, a kid like that
in something like the Marine Corps in a place like Guantanamo— like, the number of
kind of things that went poorly for him where his military career could have been
very different, right, in a different branch or a different post,
whatever. But, but since he was where he was, he ended up with this group
of fucking assholes and was killed, right? I mean, that's just Sam's kind of take
on it. And so, you know, there's a little argument there, right? So they say,
why do you hate them so much? And Sam explains that. And then he Why
do you like them so much? And, uh, and Joe says,
because they stand on the wall and they say nothing's gonna hurt you
today. Worst fucking line in the entire movie. I hate it. Worst line in the
movie. It's so cheesy. They stand on the wall and say, I got a
new Dodge Challenger and kids by 3 different women.
Like, look, uh, yeah,
it is very melodramatic. The thing I like least about the line is how it
mimics Jessup's line at the end. And I think it's in here because it mimics
it. Like, I think that's a deliberate choice By Sorkin,
I just think he's wrong and stupid and shouldn't have done that. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. So we'll move on from there. But yeah, worst line in the fucking entire
movie. So then Joe comes over to Caffey's, knocks on the door, and is basically
like, "Hey," because they decide they're not going to meet tonight. Like, right, take a
night off. Taking a night off. We'll meet in the morning because that was the
that was at the end of this. I think was oh no no there's there's
there's more there. But oh no no that was the the prosecution closed
like that that was them after the doctor. and then they were gonna call everybody
in the patrol, but they stipulated to what was gonna be said. So the government
has closed its side of the case, and it's now on to the defense calling
their witnesses, which is why there's a delay. They're like, we're not gonna come back
till Monday, or whatever, right? And so they've got the weekend to kind of prepare,
but they're gonna take the night off. So Joe shows up at Kathy's house and
basically invites him out to a seafood restaurant. The scene
is fine. The scene to me doesn't matter because we
don't actually have a romance between these two, and it feels like this is a
scene that belongs in a movie that has a romance between these
two. And it's a relationship beat that doesn't make a ton
of sense to me. But, you know, some information kind of like comes out in
this, but nothing that like was super crucial. I feel like it
was just a lot of them getting to know each other a little bit.
Yeah, it does seem like the movie could have taken a different turn and this
scene would have made more sense. Yeah. Or if they arrived
at the seafood restaurant and the last 2 lobsters were taken by Colonel
Jessup and another guy that were right in front of them in line.
My table! Um, yeah, so Joe is optimistic
about this, right? And Danny is very negative about this. Yep. Um, we've got,
uh, now on the stand we've got, uh, Barnes, who's Noah Wyle's
character. We saw him earlier driving the Humvee, and, uh,
he is being asked about the code reds, right, on the stand. And he
kind of explains the situation where he got a code red because he like dropped
his rifle because his hands were sweaty because he didn't use the resin that they're
instructed to used to keep their hands from getting slippery. And it was something like
his squadmates, like, like put a towel
over his entire body or sheet over his body, whatever, held him down and just
took turns punching him for like an hour. Yeah. Or something like— Brutal. Very brutal.
And he's like, hey, I haven't dropped my gun ever since.
It works, sir. That's right. I just wonder, like, how often,
just knowing the different personality types that, that would be there,
how often is that training you to be better and to not drop your gun?
And how often is that training you to use your gun on the guys who
punched you? The next time you get a gun, I think what it's actually training
you to do is to find somebody else who fucks up so that you can
get them. True. Like part of it is really is like, oh, this is what
happens. Let me figure out who I'm gonna do that to at some point.
You know, which is yeah pretty bad. This is one of my favorite
like lawyerly pieces here. So basically in cross
examination, Jack Ross comes up with the United States Marine Corps operating manual or
whatever it's called, like a code of ethics, whatever it is, and he's
He's like, you know, Private, or Corporal, could you show me in here? It's just
a QR code now. Right, exactly. But he brings it up to him, he goes,
you know, Corporal, could you show me in here where Code Red is defined and
like how you know whatever? And he goes, oh no, so you're not gonna find
this in the book. It's kind of a thing we just do down at Gitmo.
It's like, you know, already. Oh, well great, I've got that. So he grabs the
Guantanamo Bay, like, you know, manual. He goes, find me in here where it says.
And he goes, nah, like, you don't really do— it's not in there. Like,
it's not how it works. He goes, oh, so you're telling me that like all
the information, you know, in all your time, like there's— you've never been told about
this? Like, it's not in the book? book. How strange. And when he goes to
sit down, he goes, no more questions. Kathy gets up to do the redirect,
and he grabs the book and he goes, show me where the mess— it says
the mess hall is in here. I thought that was fucking brilliant. That is one
of my favorite Sorkin little writing moments in here, where— because it's so obvious and
it's clearly something the character would have had to think of in the moment.
Yeah, he would not have been able to plan for that. Yeah, yeah, it's a
good move. And you see Kevin Bacon's character, he's like, oh man,
got me. Yeah, got him. Noah Wyle's like, earnest,
like, befuddlement at being asked that question is so good.
Like, he plays, like, just such a goofy, like, kind of—
not even dumb, but he's just so honest about everything that
he comes off like, what? Like, I don't see what you're doing here. And I
love where he's like, you're saying that they don't feed you? And he's like,
no, 3 squares a day. It's interesting, though, to me,
of the actors who, you know,
the kind of famous actors we know who were witnesses, right? So you've got Christopher
Guest, you've got Cuba Gooding Jr., you've got Noah Wyle, I feel like Wiley is
like the best actor. Like, he took the acting the most serious. Oh, he's awesome.
He's so good in this. And it's— yeah, he— I feel like he really developed
a character. And I feel like Christopher Guest is like, well, I'm just gonna be
a stodgy doctor guy. Like, you know, which is fine. Guest is a good actor,
don't get me wrong. But it's like, it didn't— it felt like Wiley really was
like, this is— I'm gonna fucking make a career out of this shit. Christopher Guest
was almost like when Mike Myers appeared in Inglourious
Basterds as like a general or whatever, where it's Like the draw is that this
funny guy isn't doing a funny. He's being like a regular— Maybe. But Christopher Guest
was never Mike Myers level popularity ever. So, but yeah,
I guess that kind of thing for sure. Let's see here.
So, oh, one kind of recurring thing is that Caffey will
go up to this newsstand. He's got this buddy at a newsstand
and they're just like exchanging idioms with each other every time they go up
there. It was like, a penny saved, a dollar earned. An apple a day
keeps the doctor away. And just firing that stuff back and forth. Very funny.
He goes to he goes to his newsstand. This is like the night after the
trial, and he gets in his car, and boom! Markinson is in the
back of his car, hiding in the back like a creep.
Yeah, exactly. Like a poltergeist. But yeah,
he basically says, you know, like Jessup never ordered
Joseph. Jessup never ordered the transfer. That's like the piece of information Markinson
gives him. He goes, "What are you talking about? I saw it. You signed it.
Your signature was on." He's like, "Yeah, I signed it the morning you arrived in
Cuba. Like it never happened." And he's like, okay, I'm gonna put you in a
hotel. You're gonna testify, like, whatever, all this stuff.
So there's that. And then Caffey now has something to go tell
Jack Ross about and be all braggy and shit. Yeah. So he finds Kevin Bacon,
Jack Ross, at a bar, sits down, smug as fuck,
eating his popcorn, ordering a beer. I'll have what he's having, like the whole deal.
And they go back and forth. And basically, the key is he
says, I've got Markinson. I'm gonna get him. He's gonna be witness, and I'm gonna
subpoena Jessup. And Ross is like, "Look, I need to tell you,
like if you falsely accuse a Marine officer of like
a capital crime without sufficient evidence, like you will go to jail. Like this isn't
just getting disbarred. This is like you'll go to jail for that." Yeah. It's like,
I know. It's kind of crazy the stakes of that, right? Absolutely.
So let's see here. We've got oh. So they get in like
they get in a big blowup, right? Right. And the last thing that Because Ross
says something to him about, you know, you're chasing the ghost of
your dead father, which is just really harsh. Pretty harsh. And then
Caffey's response is, well, you're a lousy fucking softball player.
Lousy softball player, Jack. Yeah. So the next—
oh, the other thing Markinson told him, so is the, the thing. And then he
also said that the 0600 was not the next flight off. There was a flight
at like, you know, 3 AM or something. Well, it was just— it was like,
no, it was like right at when he was killed, basically. It was like,
it was at like, uh, you know, 11:48 or some shit. I mean, it was
like, you know, super, super— it was right near— he could have been on that
flight. He could have been on it. There's one other. So we cut back,
new day of the trial. They've now called Lieutenant Jonathan Kendrick, Kiefer Sutherland, to the
stand. And he, you know, makes sure it's clear that the only 2 books he's
ever read are the United States Marine Corps Code of Ethics and the King James
Bible. Fucking moron. Anyway,
and so— He's read a whole ton of Jack Reacher books by
now. I was thinking Mein Kampf would have been high on his list, but you
know. Um, uh, so they're questioning Kendrick,
who is the direct kind of superior to Dawson and Downey, and he's saying,
you know, Hal Dawson, like, here's his record, his service record,
exemplary scores, you know, up until this point when
he started getting bad grades, right? And they're asking, like, you know,
why, why did you do that? Yeah, basically the story Caffey's
trying to tell and what probably really happened, but what he doesn't really get Kendrick
to fully admit to, obviously, is That like Dawson was great. Dawson was an exemplary
Marine. Da da da da da until he like went against
a code red that was ordered on somebody else who was told to just they
were not going to get any food. They only got water and vitamin supplements for
a week. Yeah, and he snuck him food. And and the idea is that
that Kendrick then punished Dawson for doing that by giving
him this below average review, and it like screwed up his he would have gotten
promoted to full corporal instead of lance corporal. Like that kind. of thing. Um,
because Caffey's making the point that like, oh, so in other words, when you order
a code red and then it doesn't— isn't followed, there's like— there's punishment,
clear punishment. Like, he knows what he's, you know, whatever. Uh, and he doesn't
really get Kendrick to admit to any of that. Yeah, he's— he stays, you know,
with his story or whatever. But it puts it in the mind of not just,
you know, the jury, but also of us, that like, hey, yeah, I guess you
wouldn't really go against this guy if you wanted to have a fucking
career. He's scary. Yeah, for sure, dude. He is really
the most terrifying Um, and Dawson, uh, they make
him the biggest possible hero. It's like, oh, all of my biggest weakness
is sometimes I sneak food to guys that were intentionally starving to death.
Yeah, exactly. Although they do give him the fault of like, he's the one that
fired across the fence line when he claimed that his mirror— they call it the
guy who's like the opposite, whatever, right? He says he did something, but nobody else
saw anything, nobody else, whatever. And so there is an element of like, did Dawson
just get a Nietzsche trigger finger? Is, you know, he's not perfect in that sense.
Yeah. Plus he killed a guy. There's that.
Let's not dispute that. He killed a guy. Yeah, he doesn't dispute it at all.
Anyway, so Markinson has told them that there was another flight, but they get the
flight log out of Guantanamo Bay, and of course it doesn't show such a flight.
It shows only the 0600 that they told, you know, they claimed that the transfer
order was put on. And he's like, we'll find it from Andrews. It should have
landed at Andrews. Go find that flight log. And so Sam goes
off to do that. Yep. Sam's doing the research there, and in the meantime,
Markinson is supposed to testify, you know,
the next day. Yeah. And Markinson, knowing that he's got
to testify, he doesn't want to— doesn't want to do it. Does not— does not
want to do it. And he ends up— we get this scene,
and this stuck with me for sure when I first saw this movie, is it's
a voiceover of the letter that Markinson is writing to Santiago's parents.
Yes. Where he's not telling them what actually fucking happened. Nope, he's still being super
cagey. Yep. And he— yeah, he's saying, I've, I've done the best I can
do for— to help, or whatever. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. You, you could,
you could go on the stand. Yeah. And make it right.
Or at least, if only I had a pen and paper with me right now
to write some shit. Oh my God. Fucking crazy.
But that's a good point. The visual of this, this whole scene of him getting
into his full uniform and then putting the gun in his mouth is just really,
really powerful. Absolutely. And, uh, Uh, one of the, one of the things that
sticks with you from this movie. So the star witness, kind of the only guy
who could credibly tell them what actually happened, is fucking
gone. Yeah. Yep. And so, so basically,
uh, and then Downey is on the stand. I think it's kind of happening intercut
with the Markinson thing, right? Is Downey is on the stand, um,
and initially, you know, Joe is very much like, you know, or maybe it's right
after, but it's like Joe is telling Kathy like, look, you need to ask the
questions in the right order. And all I'm thinking to myself
myself while I'm watching this is like, that's— you know they get to cross-examine him,
right? You know you don't get to tell the prosecutor what to do, right?
Your guy, your boy's gonna fuck up. The way he fucks up though is so
much worse because he never told Joe or any of the lawyers that he
was not in the room when Kendrick told Dawson to do the
code red on Santiago. He only heard it from Dawson. Yeah. And Jack Ross figures
it out because he was like, you know, at a post until a certain time,
and then a Jeep broke down, so they had to Like hike back, and it
was a long way. And he admits that he got there, you know, whatever twenty-five
minutes after when he claims originally that he was in the room,
you know, for that. So so this is all fucking crazy.
And they're back at Kathy's apartment. Joe and Sam waiting for Kathy to show up
in there, and they're all they're freaking out about is how Downey fucked up the
timeline. Yeah. And now it's clear that Dawson gave the order to Downey,
right? So right. That's not good for them. Oh man! Downey on
the stands kind of kind of panicking when he's
being asked the question, and he's just like, "How?" Oh dude,
you feel so much for the guy. I mean, you do feel so much
for this guy who's just like a simple dude who's very young and doesn't have
a lot of experience in the world. And like, this is everything for him.
It's fucking crazy. Simple like Simple Jack from Tropic Thunder. Oh yeah,
yeah, simple, simple. Yeah, yeah, this guy is not bright. Good, uh, good pumpkin
pie haircut. Absolutely. Um, yeah, so I
was given an order and I followed it. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so now we've got
Caffey. Uh, Tom Cruise We love a Tom Cruise drunk scene.
Sure. Tom Cruise drunk in a movie. Very necessary, right?
Cocktail. Yeah, yeah. Risky business all over the place.
Um, and, and he's hammered in the rain. He's just wonderfully
funny as a, as a really drunk guy and is explaining to them,
you know, hey, well, uh, Markinson's dead. Yeah. So whatever.
And, you know, he got in his full dress uniform, put a pistol in his
mouth. He's done. So we seem to be out of witnesses, right?
Uh, Jessup is like the Hail Mary that they have. That's all they have left.
I mean, in their minds. Like, that was the next thing they were gonna do,
but now it's like, without Markinson, like, how can we do that? And this
is when Jo kind of, kind of, uh, picks, or, you know,
points out to him, like, why did you ask Jessup for the transfer order?
You weren't just— you didn't just want it. You wanted to see him when
he reacted because you knew there was something wrong. So it's like, let's just fucking
get him. And he's like, are you fucking kidding? Um, but he, like,
blows up at her, screams all kinds of fucking nasty shit.
And she quite rightfully leaves. Yeah. Uh, leaving Sam and Kathy
alone for a little while. To share, uh, this bottle
of Jack Daniel's that Kathy's been drinking directly from all day. So it's like 90%
backwash, and Sam takes a swig of it. What a good friend here.
When Kathy goes, you want a drink? And Sam goes, sure, why not?
I'm like, I got about 5 reasons why not, pal. You want 'em, I'll give
'em to you, but don't fucking drink that today. Um, and they're kind of reminiscing
about, about, uh, about, uh, Kathy's dad. Yeah, right. And Sam is,
is saying like, you know, your dad's the best lawyer that, that I ever knew,
but if I needed one lawyer to be on this case, it would be— it's
like, I mean, nice thing to say, but— But bullshit.
Complete bullshit. Like, you know, it's like, hey, you know, Ken Griffey—
I mean, it's reversed, but hey, Ken Griffey Sr., your son might have been the
greatest ballplayer of all time, but I'd rather have you up in the bottom of
the 9th. No, I wouldn't. Give me Junior every time. Like, come on. Come on.
Oh man. So, so it finally ends with, I'm gonna put Jess up on the
stand. Yeah, yeah. You get like a very declarative moment there. But then he decides,
as we see that this is not a fifth of Jack, this is like a
375 milliliter bottle, right? This is like a smaller bottle, but he has drunk— It's
mostly gone. 80% of his minimum, 90% of it, right? So he is fucking
blotto. Yeah. And drives after Joe, right? He's in his
car driving through the rain. Joe, Joe, I'm gonna put Jess up on
the stand! Hey Joe! It's like, get the fuck out of the car, you drunk
asshole. And then the next day he's just like,
oh, I'm fine. Fresh as a fucking daisy. That's incredible. How many
people do you think he shouted, hey Joe, I'm gonna put Jess up on the
stand, before he got to her? Sorry, wrong Joe. Sorry, ma'am, I didn't see
the stroller. I apologize. Are people really walking their baby in the rain?
Come on. And they— there's like a case of beer
in that carriage instead of a baby. This is my pram with my
booze. Okay, anyway, and, uh, and Caffey has,
uh, you know, they're kind of brainstorming here to figure out how to do it.
He does a funny impression of Nicholson. No, he doesn't. For, for that's fucking
terrible. Like, if we're saying that anything from So I Married an Axe Murderer was
funny, then this was way fucking better. Um, oh man, and,
uh, that really hurt. He has this, like, he has this baseball bat that he
carries around that's like his thinking bat, right? It's thinking bat. Yeah, you know what
I'm thinking about? That's not bad. I need to think. I wish, dude, we should
do all thinking bats. We should just have— I've got a thinking bat at home.
Okay, it's a It's not a wood bat because I'm you know I've
never played. I have one by the bed, but I don't think with it.
It's usually just yeah in case somebody tries to come get me in the night.
How often how often does that come into into use for that purpose?
Not yet. Not yet. Thank God. Sure God. Glad. But maybe
I'll start thinking with it. There you go. But he goes into
his closet, right? That's the key here. Yeah. Yeah. And he discovers he's like wait
a second. Yeah. Why? Yeah. Why was his closet Closet looking like that.
Why was nothing packed? Very good point. He is a smart guy. Maybe you
do want him instead of his dad. I don't know. Uh, so they call,
uh, the defense calls Jessup to the stand. Yes, right. And, uh, the— this
is just so great, the buildup of it, the way that, that he sets this
whole thing up. And again, I mean, he probably didn't have
the entire thing planned out from the beginning, but definitely he
had the foundation figured out. Like, the beginning of what he starts talking about,
he just lays it out so So he's asking Jessup, you know, you said that
Santiago was being transferred because he was in danger. Yeah. Yeah, he was in danger.
Grave danger? Is there any other kind? Right? And this, like,
snappy back and forth between the two. And there's— he fucking hates
him so much. Jessup cannot stand this guy. And, uh, and he
finally gets to, well, why wasn't he packed? Yeah. You know, he didn't call home.
Jessup, you came here for 2 days, you made 5 phone calls,
you brought all this shit. And you knew you were gonna be back in 2
days. Santiago was gonna leave forever, and he didn't even tell one person that he
was leaving. He wrote 14 letters in 9 months, but didn't make a
single phone call home to ask somebody, asking a friend to pick him up at
the airport, telling his parents he's coming, nothing at all. And he's like, like,
oh, I didn't know the man that well. It's like, you know, he doesn't really
have— Maybe he was an early riser and wanted to pack in the morning.
Like, oh, the hate is so great here. Yeah.
So we should mention real quick though, Danny sent
Sam to Andrew's AFB. He didn't say why at the time, but basically like they're
waiting. Joe and Danny are waiting for Sam to show up. Where's Sam?
Where's Sam? He'll be here. He'll be here. The whole thing. And he does.
Just before he starts questioning Jessup, Sam shows up with 2
men who are Air Force guys. And we know that because their fancy suits are
blue, not tan or black or white or anything else. They're blue. So they're Air
Force. So a couple of guys just sitting in the gallery there. But it's important
for Danny that he knows they're there, right? Yeah, yeah.
Um, and yeah, so, uh, Jessup, I can't speak on the travel habits
of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, any real— and very arrogantly again,
like, this whole time, I don't have time for this, like, I'm very important,
why are you wasting my time? And kind of looking around like, okay, see,
I'm doing the thing, I'm answering the questions, can I go now? If— unless
you have any real questions, I'm, I'm gonna get out of here. So he excuses
himself. Yeah. Right. And then we get Caffey's very pissed
about that. Well, and I love it too, Dan. Caffey, he goes back to the
defense table and picks up like a glass of water to like drink. He's got
his back turned to Jessup, and he is shaking so violently,
sipping that water like, you know, because he's about to— He's like, this is so
scary. He's so good. He's got— at some point in this process, he has to
commit to, am I going to accuse this man of doing this or not?
Yeah. Because if I'm not, I gotta let him leave and this is over.
If I'm gonna do it, I gotta do it now, and I better fucking get
him. Yeah. Or not. And it's like, you know, this is a thing that I
vacillate back and forth a little bit on this whole segment where— or this whole
sequence where, um, it feels a little convenient that Jessup,
who is in line to be the director of the National Security Council or something,
right, like a very high-level position, is so easily
rattled. Yeah. But to the credit of the script and the
movie and Nicholson's portrayal, we are shown over and over and over again that he
has nothing but contempt for the people around him, of being questioned,
of having any of his motives or methods at all brought into any kind
of scrutiny, he does not have any fucking stomach for that. Nobody should be questioning
anything he's done or is doing. Well, and Caffey like started the process
of getting under his skin way back when he asked for the, uh, the transfer
order. So like, he, he might not be rattled in a normal situation,
but Caffey has been like slowly wearing him down and,
uh, yeah, setting him up for that. And he's just pissed that this is even
happening. Yeah, 100%. He's like, this is— I, you know, well, as we'll see.
Yeah, but, and maybe this is, maybe this is where Sam is right. It is
better to have Danny Caffey and not Lionel Caffey being because Lionel
Caffey, Jessup would've had more respect for. Yeah, probably.
And there wouldn't probably have been as much of a triggering kind of thing,
you know? Whereas with Danny Caffey, the young Harvard punk, right, who's never
served for real kind of thing, questioning me, oh, fuck him.
And I think that it does kind of make it more realistic that he gets
pushed to this level. But this is basically the famous exchange,
right? Yeah. Starting from, you know, did you order the code red? And like,
or I mean, there's— I don't even know where it starts, but it's like he
really goes on and on. They go back and forth a ton.
And, you know, before like Jessup gives him the whole like, you know,
you can't handle the truth, right? I mean, that's the whole deal. Um, you know,
we're not— I'm not gonna like relay the whole thing. Are your orders always followed?
Like, you ordered this guy not to be touched, so clearly,
like, you know, he was touched. So what, what is it? Either your
orders are always followed or you didn't order this guy not to be touched.
Exactly. Yeah, and then his speech about, you know, the freedom that
I provide and all this stuff. Blanket. He really does
feel like he is personally in charge of the reason that like we're
able to go to Taco Bell or whatever. Yeah, I mean, it's like he would
have— so they talked about him, you know, being in Vietnam,
right? Because him and Markinson, right? They did, they toured together in 'Nam.
And so I'm thinking back, I don't know how old the character would have been
for the Cuban Missile Crisis, probably a child, I guess, when Kennedy dealt
with that thing. But it's like, you know, Cuba has wrecked— has represented
for many Americans for decades and decades, like the closest
enemy, right? Like especially during the Cold War, it was like, well, that was the
closest the communists got to us. So there is an element of like, you know,
what happens in Cuba or to Cuba really
affects all of the United States. And it's never been true. That's never actually been
reality. But that's been the like supposition and the position of Americans
a lot. There has to be a fear to justify all the spending and all
the, you know, the prioritization of that kind of shit over like, you know,
what we need. Um, so, so yeah, we finally get the,
did you order the code red? And, you know, are you gonna answer this question?
And we get a, you're goddamn right I did. Very satisfying
to hear that. There are 2 acting— face acting moments in this scene that
I really love. One is Nicholson's and one is Bacon's. When Nicholson is first questioned
about, uh, the why the conflicting orders,
he does this great thing where he kind of purses his lips,
looks side to side. Yeah, there's a contempt, but there's also a,
oh, fuck, I fucked up. What did I fuck up? How do I do this?
And there's this— you can see him thinking, which I feel like not— there are
a lot of actors, you never get that. But Nicholson gives you, holy shit,
I can see his little wheels turning. It's so excellent. It's really wonderful. And the
other one is Bacon's. When Jessup finally screams, you're goddamn right I did,
the way Kevin Bacon— the way his eyes drop, and he just realizes, I gotta
fucking arrest this guy. He just admitted to a fucking crime and being responsible for
killing this kid. Right. And even more, even more than him losing
the case, or it was the idea of like, the next thing that I
have to do, because he was already telling, uh, Caffey,
if you accuse some, you know, of a crime, you're fucking done. So even
though I'm in the right to do this, just to slap the cuffs on this
guy is gonna— I'm, I'm scared to have to do that.
Yeah, you know, like, absolutely. Someone who's untouchable has to be touched, and it's my
job. Yep. Um, so yeah, it ends
with this big kind of chaos in the court, and, uh,
Jessup is arrested and having an incredible meltdown because he feels like after
he— after this, he's like, all right, can I fucking go now? Yeah, I ordered
that anyway. Back to Cuba. Going back to my base. Yeah, like, I got shit
to do. And this is when he's placing MPs— restrain the colonel.
Uh, so yeah, and, and he's flipping out and he's like, you know,
all you did was weaken a nation with this. And when
he lunges at him. Yes, I love it. You fucked with the wrong Marine.
So cheesy, but I love it.
And, uh, and Caffey gives the, uh, I'm an officer in
the US Navy and you're under arrest, you son of a bitch.
Yeah, the writing kind of doesn't— it's a little
cheesy. The dialogue cheeses out a little. You know what though, that, that last scene,
it was so intense. Like, it's so— it really draws you in. I think that's
why I like this movie so much, because they It's just so intense.
Even seeing it so many times. Yeah, and they're so good.
Yeah. And one of my favorite parts is also when Jack Nicholson
goes to get up and then he has to sit back down.
And the judge is like, he says something like, what kind of,
what are you running here or whatever to the judge? And he's like,
something like, I'm certain our way— Basically
like Jessup says, like, you know, you'll address to Caffey, you'll address me as Colonel
or Sir. I'm pretty sure I've earned it. And he's like, what kind of clown
show you running? Or something like that. What kind of monkey show you running here?
And he goes, well, you'll refer to me as Your Honor or Judge. I'm certain
that I've earned it. I'm certain I've earned it. Yeah. I love that part,
'cause it's just like putting him in his place a little bit. Absolutely. I do
feel like I'm on Jessup's side in that case. I think his
position is more earned than the title judge, which is sometimes your appointed thing.
Well, he's in the judge's house, though. Sure. Come on. And the judge himself is
a colonel as well. So it's not like he's some low-ranking official.
I generally hate judges being like, oh, I'll hold you in contempt.
You didn't respect my powdered wig enough. Like, go fuck yourself.
Respect my authority! Yeah, you're just a lawyer with a friend
who's a mayor. With a robe. So,
uh, so Jessup is arrested, and now we're wrapping
things up and we get the verdict. Yeah. And, um,
basically there were 3 things that they were on trial for,
uh, murder, Yep. Conspiracy to commit murder, and then conduct
unbecoming a Marine. So murder, conspiracy to commit murder, not guilty,
right? Conduct unbecoming a Marine, guilty. But the,
the sentence for that is time served, plus they're both going to be dishonorably discharged.
So, uh, yeah, wow, I fucking killed a guy, now I
got fired from my job. Like, I don't give a fuck. No, you killed a
guy. It's absolutely appropriate. Well, you killed the wrong
kind of guy is the problem. No, it— because really,
as I think about it, their job is definitely not killing people in their sleep,
which is essentially what— well, yeah, they're not supposed to do that. There are rules
of engagement. They're not supposed to do that. I'm not
saying it doesn't affect the scoreboard, but yeah,
I mean, it's, uh, it's incredibly distressing.
Yes. To these 2 guys because they're kind of like Wait, like, uh,
and especially Downey. Downey does not get it. Yeah. How? How? No, we did everything
right. We did what we're supposed to do. We followed orders. What's happening here?
And, uh, and Hal like gives kind of the final
speech of the movie. Very cheesy again. Super cheesy. So play-like.
Yes. Right? Yes. This is all— this must— this play-like part. This scene
for sure came straight out of the play in a way that like I feel
like the Joe and Kathy at the seafood restaurant maybe isn't in it at all.
Or if it is, it's very different. This felt like everything from Jessup arriving
at the courthouse to the end. I'm— I would look back on it, but I
haven't. But I still feel guaranteed, like, that is verbatim just the third act of
the play. It has to be. And, you know, Hal's final line is,
uh, like, we're in trouble because we were supposed to fight for people who can't
fight for themselves. We're supposed to fight for people like Willie. That motherfucker's
still a Marine. And then at the end they say, and scene.
Like, this movie should have ended with the entire cast holding hands
and bowing in that courtroom. That's called a curtain call. And yes, that was a
curtain call. That would have been very apropos. I agree. We should have had
a curtain call. Oh. Yeah, that is A Few Good Men. That is A
Few Good Men. All right. Oh, man. Well, this was
my pick. Actually, why don't we let our guest give her final
thoughts, and then I'll go in. Jeanie, A Few Good Men, you can rate
it on a 0 to 5. All right, let's hear it. And yeah, give us
some final thoughts on this movie. Why did you pressure me to bring it this
week? I'll just throw it out real quick, though. I can't add your score in
because it screws up all the shit I do on the website. I was going
to say, I can't add it, don't. So officially, the score will be ours,
but you don't have to give a score. If you want to, please feel free,
but you don't have to. Okay, well, this— I just,
again, I've just loved this movie. I've seen it like at least 10 times
all the way through, if not more. Um, I love
a young Tom Cruise. I think he's excellent in this. I,
I just— I— it's just a fun watch. Um,
yeah, I'll, I'll watch it again. Yes, we will. Um,
yeah, I don't, I don't know what else to say about the movie other than
Yeah, it's, it's excellent. And I think if I were, if my score
were to count, uh, I think I'd give it a 3.5.
Oh, okay. 3.5. Or 3.5. I was gonna say that. Well, I'll just tell you,
like, in our, in our scale, that's fairly on the low side. Nic and I
are among the most generous point givers, I think, in podcast history. I know,
we really do. Really. And I'm gonna explain one of the points. I was thinking
it might be a 4, but then it is Really cheesy. Yeah.
And some of— I like the music, I like the score,
but a couple of the parts are a little like when he's chasing
Joe and he finally reveals, I'm gonna put him on the stand, and it's
like, oh, like, I don't know. Yeah. So there's a
few things like that that I, you know. So I'm gonna stand— I'm gonna stick
with it. Okay, that works. All right, thank you for having me.
And of course, thank you for watching that movie. Yeah, thanks for joining us.
This was fun. fun. Um, yeah, so I think this was,
this was super fun. I love talking about this. Uh, loaded cast.
Yes. Just perfect. Like, the script is just so wonderful.
And, uh, and with a play, I mean, you do have to have these lines
that really hammer things home. Like, you're not counting on being able to show these
visuals, so you have to be able to really, like, deliver the moral message
at the end and all this stuff. And it does make it kind of cheesy,
but I think overall this held up The back and forth during
the trial scenes was really like the boxing match. You know,
we're just like, the momentum is constantly shifting, and we don't know how it's gonna
go. Mm-hmm. Um, one of the best Tom Cruise performances out
there. Yeah. And, uh, Nicholson, just unbelievable the way that it
seems like he's— he was on the screen for 80% of
the movie when you go to think back about it, just 'cause he was so
impactful. Um, super fun. I think it could have been, I don't know, 10,
15 minutes shorter. But overall, I love this. This is
definitely one worth watching and rewatching. This is a 4 out of 5 for me.
Nice. Very cool. Funny enough, I actually like this movie, or I'm going to
rate it at least higher than either one of you, which I find a little
surprising. But yeah, no, I love, love, love this movie. Aaron Sorkin is one of
my favorite screenwriters because I just, I am a sucker for like dialogue and character
work. And it's great here. I do think this is, if not Tom Cruise's best
performance, which might be Eyes Wide Shut, this is very close. Like, this is right
in there. And I think with Nicholson, I think this is
the most efficient talent that Nicholson has ever shown on screen. Like,
this is like his best performance per minute of screen time, right? He's done
other ones. You know, you got to do One Flew, and you got to do
The Shining, you got to do, you know, Chinatown, whatever. He's done great, great,
great stuff. But in all those movies, he's in like 80% of the movie.
And here he's on screen for like 20 or 25 minutes, right? But he is
so impactful. The whole sequence— the thing that I realized, like, there's a cheesiness
to some of the ending. I mean, you guys are dead right about the final
sort of Hal Dawson's final speech is not great.
But, you know, the whole, uh, uh, uh, you, you want the truth, I think
I'm entitled, you can't handle the truth, all this shit, right? It, it sounds cheesy
now because it's become a cliché because of this, right? But it's so intense and
so good. So impactful and intense. Yeah, when it happened.
Um, so I, yeah, I love this movie. I think the cast is fantastic,
the writing's fantastic, the directing's fantastic. Uh, I didn't really notice
the score, which I'm actually like okay with when a composer just underlines
a movie with his music, and I don't really notice it that much. That's actually
kind of a good thing in some times, sometimes anyway. I'm a 4.5 out of
5. I think this is not quite, you know, where I'd be doing like a
perfect 5 out of 5, but it is close. And I think this is just
a really spectacular movie. And thank you, Jeanie and Nic, both of you,
for making me watch this this week because it was a hell of a lot
of fun. Yeah, love it. All right, Steve, well, that's A Few Good
Men, and you're, you're on deck next week. What do we have coming up?
I think we're going to go to another Another film that is
just stocked, just chock-full of fantastic actors top to bottom. There are people
in this movie that you know, like you're going to recognize everybody from from from
the main characters down to Steve Dave and the comic book guys. No, you're not.
You won't recognize them. The writing's fantastic. It's not Aaron Sorkin fantastic, but it is
fantastic. We're going to see our second Kevin Smith film of the podcast because we're
going to go and watch 1990. I think I'll get this wrong. I think it's
five, either 1995 or 96. Mallrats. We're gonna go watch Mallrats.
Okay. Mallrats is my sort of quintessential
Kevin Smith film. Ooh, okay. I'm not saying it's the best. Yeah. It's not even
necessarily my favorite, but it's the one that I'm like, if you'd never in your
life heard of Kevin Smith or seen any one of his movies, this is the
one I would show you first. Okay. It's Mallrats. Yeah, yeah. Ben Affleck,
Jason Lee, obviously Jay Mewes and Kevin Smith themselves, Joey Lauren
Adams. Uh, we see, uh, we've seen her before.
Um, crap, I can't remember the actress's name. Uh, she was— she played
Jade in The Rock. Um, oh yeah, there's a
whole bunch of people in this that like— oh, Jeremy London, or maybe it's Jason
London. I can never remember. It's one of the Londons, the one that wasn't in
Dazed and Confused and Party of Five. It's the other London. Uh, I think maybe
I'm getting them all mixed up. Anyway, Mallrats, that's what we're gonna see next week.
Uh, have you seen Mallrats? Dude, I do not think I've seen Mallrats.
Sweet. I know, I mean, I'm excited about to check this one out and,
and And to see how Kevin Smith did with like a budget, because we had
watched Clerks, right, which had like a lot of the quintessential Kevin Smith
elements to it but was so limited by its budget. It was his
first film. So now that he's been given a little cash, I'd love to see
what he's, uh, gonna do. It certainly did not have the same multiplier effect,
uh, as a box office thing that Clerks did. Um, and actually also Mallrats,
although we won't be reviewing this one, it is in my opinion the Best DVD
commentary track of any movie I've ever seen. It's absolutely hilarious.
Okay, they spend the entire time making fun of Ben Affleck, who was present for
the commentary, but he was also filming Armageddon at the same time he was filming
Mallrats. And so it's there's a lot of very
funny stuff that I will look back and make sure to reference when we watch
it next week. But yeah, so that will be next week. Jeannie, thank you so
much for joining us as our first ever guest. Absolutely awesome. You were wonderful.
Wonderful. And you're welcome back. Thank you for having me. Welcome back anytime. I was
very nervous. Well, maybe, maybe next time won't be. It didn't
show. You did great. All right, everybody, that's a wrap. If you like what you
hear, please consider heading over to Apple or Spotify and leaving us a 5-star review.
It helps new folks find the show. Be sure to check out our website at
twodadsonemovie.com. That's the number 2 and the number 1. There you can explore the
movies we've covered, sign up for our newsletter, The Rewind, and even get sneak previews
of upcoming episodes. Once again, this has been A Few Good Men. Another episode of
2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve. And I'm Nic. Thank you so much for listening.
We'll catch you next week. Thanks,