Transcript

Steve

Hey, everybody. Before we get into this episode, I wanted to call out that the movie Cape Fear has a lot of pretty dark elements to it. There's a lot of discussion of sexual assault, sexual battery. And if that kind of thing is something that's going to be a problem for you, totally understand. But you might not want to listen through this episode. We do have to talk about it. It's part of the plot. It's part of the setup. So we do discuss sexual assault in this episode. And if that is an issue for you, I just, you know, turn it off. Come back to us next week. I promise we'll have something a lot more lighthearted. Just wanted to let you know ahead of time. Thanks.

Kersek (Cape Fear)

Cady, Come here. Wait a second. You know, I've been in a real bad mood lately. It's a shame, isn't it? You know what you can do to brighten my mood?

Max Cady (Cape Fear)

No.

Kersek (Cape Fear)

Get the hell out of here. Not only just this little town, I mean the whole goddamn state. I don't want to see you, I don't want to hear you, and I don't want to smell you. Now leave.

Max Cady (Cape Fear)

I like to... Are you my friend?

Kersek (Cape Fear)

No, I'm not your friend.

Max Cady (Cape Fear)

Oh. Cause I thought maybe you were my friend. Because I like to plan my comes and goings with friends. But if you're not my friend, you're planning my comes and goings. I'd call that presumptuous. In fact, I call them downright rude. Cause I ain't your porch baby, buddy.

Kersek (Cape Fear)

Well, gee golly gosh, I sure am sorry I offended you, you white trash piece of shit.

Max Cady (Cape Fear)

I got the all over fidgets on that one. You really shaking me up. I'm shivering all over. Ooh. It's not necessary to lay a foul tongue on me, my friend. I could get upset, things could get out of hand. And then in self defense, I could do something to you that you would not like right here.

Kersek (Cape Fear)

Anytime you feel squirrely, you just jump.

Max Cady (Cape Fear)

You threatening me? You threatening me?

Kersek (Cape Fear)

You catch on fast.

Max Cady (Cape Fear)

Cause I'm well within my rights to be here and you know it. If I stay here, what you gonna do?

Kersek (Cape Fear)

I don't give a rat's ass about your rights. You just watch your step and you know what I'm talking about.

Max Cady (Cape Fear)

What you going to do, arrest me? You a cop? Or were you a cop? Or were you not good enough to remain on the force, cuz you know what? That's the feeling I'm getting here. Hope you enjoyed your breakfast.

Steve

It's two Dads, one movie. It's the podcast where two middle aged dads sit around and shoot the about the movies of the 80s and 90s. Here are your hosts, Steve Paulo and Nic Briana. Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

Today we are talking about the 1991 thriller Cape Fear. Nic, this was a pick that you made for us, so why don't you tell us a little bit about why you picked Cape Fear.

Nic

You know, I just thought this is a lot different from what we've been talking about recently. I think we're getting Robert De Niro now for the first time.

Steve

Oh, yeah.

Nic

And also Martin Scorsese now for the first time in a very weird way. Right. This wouldn't have been the. It's kind of like a few episodes ago where secret to my success was the first Michael J. Fox drop on our 80s and 90s podcast. But I thought it was interesting for a few reasons. One is it's De Niro kind of not being De Niro. Yeah, he's like really doing a character. Not that he's not acting in his other roles, but he's generally like the dad from Meet the Parents.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

You know, like from mid-90s on. And it was kind of cool to see how that worked and to see if, like, you can separate the Robert De Niro ness enough from like the character he was playing. So I thought that would be interesting to talk about. But also, I don't know, it was just so creepy. Like, there's something about this movie that really stuck with me. And then I think most importantly for people of our generation who were big fans of the Simpsons, it's important to watch Cape Fear and understand it to fully enjoy season five, episode two, Cape Fear, where Sideshow Bob is going through a similar progression as Max Cady going after Bart Simpson. So that's my thoughts on why I picked it. Have you seen it before?

Steve

So I had not. I had not seen it before. This is the first time I watched. I watched it two days ago in prep for this, and it was the first time I'd seen it. But I had, of course, seen that Simpsons episode. I mean, I'm sure I've seen every episode of the first 10 or 15 seasons of the Simpsons. And so it was so funny to see moments and scenes in this movie that were then taken really whole cloth and used in the Simpsons episode and be like, oh, I recognize this. But I know I don't actually recognize. Yes, I recognize the like, sort of spoof version of this. Right off the bat it happened. And I don't know if they could start it just yet, but the. The pull up in prison with the big tattoo, it's like, oh, yeah, Sideshow Bob. So, yeah. So very cool. Thank you for picking it because I hadn't seen it and, you know, to be honest, like, I didn't even realize that it was Martin Scorsese. You know, I didn't realize that it was like Jessica Lange and Juliette Lucy. I knew it was like, I knew Nic Nolte was in it and I knew obviously Robert De Niro was in it. But, like, I didn't know all the, like, proper, you know, sort of info about this. So it was good to come into it pretty fre and be able to enjoy it. And so, yeah, and it's great too, actually. You've picked a great movie for us, Nic, for this week because in about two weeks, I think we're going to kick off our first ever theme month. So, listener, this is where we are trying to hone in on certain areas of the 80s and 90s movies world because there are so many, we could just pick, you know, somewhat haphazardly and. And always have a great movie to talk about, whatever. We decided it might be fun to really narrow our focus for, like, chunks of time. So to start that off, this October 2025 is going to be shocktober. And while we're not literally only doing horror movies, there will absolutely be some horror movies in there, or just some, like, creepy, scary thrillers. This movie very much fits. Would fit in with that theme for sure.

Nic

Terrifying.

Steve

Terrifying. Especially as we are speaking to you listeners to fathers of daughters. Yeah, not good. Okay, let's jump into the facts on Cape Fear. Cape Fear. Ra. Rated R. Very deservedly hard, we used.

Nic

To say back in the East Coast.

Steve

That's right. It was released on November 15, 1991, with a running time of 128 minutes. It is directed by the great Martin Scorsese. Martin Scorsese is actually, I believe, one of the characters and singles referred to him as. But that's okay. Written By John D. McDonald, James R. Webb and Wesley Strick, whose middle initial is not important enough to remember, starring Robert De Niro, Nic Nolte, Juliet Lewis and Jessica Lange. Scores Rotten Tomatoes. I was actually a little surprised by the score. A 75% positive score on Rotten Tomatoes. That seems low to me. I got to be honest. Like, I was a little surprised that especially given the pedigree of the cast, the acting in this, in my opinion, is one of the best that we've covered. Just on a pure, like acting talent level.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Across the cast is ridiculous. So I'm a little surprised with that. 7.39 decibels makes a little more sense to me. Although again, I think a little on the low side.

Nic

I think movies though, sometimes take a ding if there's just something really disturbing in it. And I wonder if, like, we can figure out a 2Dads type formula, you know, some kind of saber metric, like the value of going over the top with your R rating. And is that going to turn off a certain number of people no matter how good the film is?

Steve

Sort of like Tropic Thunder being warned not to go full R. All right, some awards. So it did win some Critics association awards, but none of the major big awards. The things to mention, I think, for, for this movie is that it was nominated for two Oscars. Robert De Niro was nominated for Best Actor and Juliette Lewis for Best Supporting Actress. And I gotta be honest, I'd not look to see who won that category that year. But whoever beat Juliet Lewis must have been impressive.

Nic

Juliet Lewis is incredible. Yeah.

Steve

Really ridiculous. The other thing we'll mention on the awards tip is that the 1992 MTV Movie Awards had this nominated for an award. Did not win, thankfully for all of our souls. But Juliet Lewis and Robert De Niro's Kiss in the School Theater was nominated for best kiss at the 92 MTV Movie Awards.

Nic

Funniest joke you could make. It is not a joke. It is. I mean, forget about. I mean, the two main things wrong. Is that there's a 30 plus year age gap. One and one of them is 15 years old.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And then the other thing is it is in no way a sexy, romantic, cool. It is so tense and uncomfortable.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

MTV Movie Awards, where you head at?

Steve

Well, and here's the thing. So here are the other nominees that year. I remember them off the top of my head because when I looked at it, they seared into my brain. So it was Angelica Houston, Raul. Raul Julia and Addams Family. And they were so.

Nic

There we go. They were great.

Steve

You know, Angelica Houston even said I could never play Morticia again after Raul Julia died because, you know, she's like, he's my Gomez. Like such a wonderful thing. Annette Bening and Warren Beatty together in Bugsy. Weren't they married? They were literally like a couple. Right?

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So that's great. And then this was nominated. And then I'm actually, I'm forgetting one, but whatever. But the winner of that year was Macaulay Culkin and Anna Chlumsky from My Girl. And I feel like that makes it worse that Juliette Lewis and Robert De Niro were nominated, that that's the one that won. I mean, it's cute and it's innocent and there's stuff going on, but, like, what a strange fucking category to begin with. And then what a strange set of nominees, I hear.

Nic

Really, really crazy. Like, I feel like there's some. Some people have some answering to do. We might. I might get my letter writing pen out later tonight.

Steve

There you go. Okay, let's last two things on Just the Facts because let's move on from that. On a budget of $35 million, I think most of which was probably spent in the final 15 minutes on the boat. The box office take was 1 82.3 million for 5.2 times its budget. By any measure, a huge box office hit. So good for everybody involved. That is the facts or that those are, I guess, the facts.

Nic

And that is quote the facts. Right. As the facts being a single.

Steve

I guess that's true. Yeah.

Nic

I think we're right either way.

Steve

I think those are the facts. Or that was just the facts.

Nic

All right, well, should I just get into.

Steve

Let's dive because. Oh, man, we gotta talk about this intro. This, like, credit sequence.

Nic

I will say, like, normally when we're watching something on my TV, the volumes at, you know, on a scale of 0 to 100, it's at, like, in the 50s, generally 60, depending on what's happening. This is the lowest volume I've ever had anything on. Because this score at the beginning during the credits is absolutely. It's awesome.

Steve

It is great.

Nic

It is incredible. It sets the tone right away, but it is incredibly ominous. And this is actually a remake of a 1962 movie of the same title. I wonder if I haven't seen that one, but I wonder if the music kind of took something from that, because it really just had the feeling of, like, an older film.

Steve

Right, right. Yeah. It was interesting when I was watching it. Obviously, again, not something that I was familiar with before. I felt like it was very Hitchcockian.

Nic

Yes.

Steve

And I looked because I just realized I should have looked. And no, it is not. Was not directed by Hitchcock. The original in 62. So. But. But so much of this felt a little bit like the opening to Vertigo or like there's different. Like, very, very Hitchcock style. The way things would turn into negative or, like, be washed out in a given color. The way the score. Yeah. Was like, so ominous from Jump Street. Like it really felt very Hitchcock. And I don't know if that was a deliberate look. Martin Scorsese is Martin Scorsese. Whatever appeared on screen was deliberately done. Right. So I don't think he was accidentally, you know, mimicking a Hitchcockian style. I'm sure he was doing it quite deliberately, but. And it works.

Nic

And maybe that's why he picked this project, you know, because it's not written by him. And maybe it was his opportunity to kind of do a Hitchcock. Hitchcock. Yeah, Homage. An Itchcock homage.

Steve

Hitchcock. Oh my. Yeah, no, really great stuff. And also wanted to mention on the topic of that 62 original that was remade here. Both of the main characters from 62 are in this film. So Robert Mitchum. Yeah, Robert Mitchum, who played Max Cady, plays the police lieutenant that Sam has to work, who says, like, I wouldn't suggest you do anything like that. You know, that whole guy.

Nic

Yes.

Steve

And then of course, very briefly in the movie, Gregory Peck plays Sam, Sam Bowden in the first, in the original version and appears here as Katie's lawyer at one point. But yeah, both of those men appear in this version of the film and are fantastic because they're Robert Mitchum and Gregory Peck and they can literally do no wrong on screen.

Nic

Yeah, really cool to see that.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So after the credits, now we're in like the real introduced to one of the characters and it is Robert De Niro's character. We don't know the name at the time. His name is Max Cady and he's in prison doing one of those cool ultra healthy looking self prison workouts where improvised equipment, equipment and everything look, look.

Steve

Looking like Linda Hamilton in T2. Yeah. The pull ups on her.

Nic

He's doing like military presses between the bunks or whatever. And you can see there's all these books there. And you know, the most dangerous thing a prisoner can have is a. Is a law book. And then I think there's a. Photos on his wall. There's like a photo of Stalin and.

Steve

So Nietzsche was up there.

Nic

Stalin, yeah. I'm not sure who else he's got, you know, so I mean this, this.

Steve

Good heroes to have.

Nic

And then he has very scary tattoos. I mean, early 90s. To have a set like that if you're not in the Yakuza. I mean that was incredible to have that much tattoo on you and on your back.

Steve

Back tattoos and full sleeves and things like that are way more common now than they were 35 years ago. So. Yeah.

Nic

And I think the Back tattoo. It's like one of those scales of justice, and it's a cross, and then one side it says truth and justice. And the truth thing has the Bible, and then the justice side has, like.

Steve

A knife, like a dagger. Yeah, yeah. So he's. He totally well adjusted. Very well adjusted. Obviously rehabilitated. You know, this guy's not going to.

Nic

He's ready to go.

Steve

He's ready to go.

Nic

Yeah. He's been through the cryo program. He's ready to start knitting.

Steve

Let's reintroduce him to society asap. But that is what happens. He makes parole, basically. And, you know, we see him walking out of. Walking out of prison, and they, you know, ask, hey, is there anybody who can come get you or we should call. He's like, nope, you know, whatever. And what about your books? Read them already. Which is like, okay. I mean, not that I thought he would take the book. Isn't that from the prison library? Why would he take those books anyway? But, yeah, so we. We know he is well read.

Nic

Come on, you can get all the books you want once you're outside. Yeah, so. And he was a loner and just took off on his own wearing, like, kind of a really cool 70s shirt. Like he got. He went to prison in this timeline, in 77 or 76 or something like that. So, you know, he came out looking the part.

Steve

Yeah, exactly right. Looking like he's in a Quentin Tarantino film and not a Martin Scorsese film. But yeah.

Nic

And again, the score is really giving us some scary guy music.

Steve

I wrote in my notes here, like, the score is doing too much. Like, it really is so ominous from the beginning. Yeah.

Nic

And then, you know, so you get out of prison. What's the first thing you do? You get yourself the most comically large cigar that you can find, and you get your ass to Problem Child.

Steve

I thought that's what that was. I was like, is that John Ritter's Problem Child?

Nic

Another movie we will cover at some point? Because Problem Child is very funny and very well done. It's a really interesting choice. And I wonder if in the. In the first movie, there was a scene where he was at the cinema watching something. So must be something. So, yeah, Max Cady is in there, and we kind of meet the rest of the family. Nic Nolte and. Yeah, the Bowden's.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And they're in the theater. And Max, Katie is in there being very loud and smoking a giant cigar, laughing just during the setup of every joke, maniacally, like. Yeah, just Absolute busting out laughing like he would have gotten kicked out of Def Comedy Jam in 1991. Like when he'd be like excuse me sir, can you keep it down? Nobody can hear Bernie Mac. So he was really hamming it up in the theater. And they're upset by this and they're oh, this is so rude and let's get out of here.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so the Bowden decided they're go get ice cream and so they head to the ice cream parlor and. And so the Bowden's, of course we've got Sam Bowden, the father. He's a lawyer. It's played by Nic Nolte. There's Lee. She is an artist or maybe a designer. Not 100% sure. She obviously does sketches but it sounds like more like maybe a marketing designer logos. At one point she was trying to design. That's played by Jessica Lang. And then of course their 15 year old daughter Dani Danielle played by Juliet Lewis. And so the three of them are now at the ice cream shop getting their ice cream. You know, they want to sit outside. It's the south, right? I don't think they tell us right away exactly where we are. North Carolina maybe or something. I'm not even 100% sure.

Nic

Yeah, I don't know if they're super upfront about it.

Steve

But anyway, it's definitely the South. And we know they left Atlanta, they had to move away from Atlanta, so they're somewhere else. But they decide to go and sit outside. And that's when Sam Nicnolte looks across the street and he sees Max Cady again sitting in his car, smoking that big cigar right across the street, kind of staring at them. And at this point he doesn't know who he is, but he knows. He saw him in the theater, he had the cigar. They had an interaction. He didn't. He was not receptive to Sam's comments about hey could you, you know, put that out or whatever kind of thing. So.

Nic

And I think the cashier had said that guy paid for your ice cream.

Steve

Yeah. So he paid for ice cream.

Nic

Clearly they were not in the way your own frozen yogurt era because you can never predict that shit.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. You have to try to pay it forward, I guess. But yeah, so they. So he just says let's go back inside. And you know, it's just sort of like all of this is really just setting up the tone and the. The sort of the vibe of the movie which is just ominous. Ominous, Ominous. Like everything, everything from the score to the way De Niro looks at us, whether, you know, at them or whatever, it's just always. It's just setting up the tension, setting up the. The. The ominousness. Right. Of it. And I. I gotta be honest, like. So when I. When I got into this movie, initially hearing everybody talking, kind of whatever, everything's fine with me, except I don't really like De Niro's accent to begin with. And I think as the movie went on, I recognized that that was a lot more about me and not so much about Robert De Niro, who's obviously a fantastic actor. But I'm so used to him either sounding like he's New York, New Jersey, Brooklyn, or that sort of, like, California ish, you know, Heat and Casino, that sort of character. But it's still that gruff thing. To have this, you know, Georgian or, like this Deep south, almost like a Louisiana, like, kind of accent was so strange at first, but as a testament, again, to De Niro's acting, by 20, 30 minutes into the movie, I didn't notice it anymore.

Nic

I feel. I feel the exact same way. And I think it's like De Niro, it's like his face has a voice and. And it's really. You know what I'm saying? Like, if he was doing a voice for an animated movie and he did the Max Katie voice. I mean, and when Cape Fear, the animated series drops, he's got young kids, he's got some stuff to pay for. But, like, you associate his face so much, even though they did a good job of switching up his look, he doesn't look like that in anything else.

Steve

No, no.

Nic

But I was wondering, too. I was like, is the voice bugging me or am I just.

Steve

So.

Nic

So it's so ingrained in me to associate that voice with like, hey, what the fuck you doing? Hey, I just got out of jail.

Steve

I mean, he definitely has. There are moments where the accent falls away and some of the scenes where he's shouting a lot, you know, getting really worked up. Like, the accent kind of completely goes away the way I think for a native speaker with that accent, it wouldn't, you know, so there's that. But, I mean, look, it's acting small.

Nic

Small nitpick, though, on a great performance Spectacular.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So Nolte comes over and is like, what are you doing? He saw him, and he's kind of creeped out by it. And I don't think he identifies himself quite yet.

Steve

No, he does, actually. So when they start talking, he reminds him. You remember why I'm Counselor. Like, he does that whole thing, right? And he's kind of like. And he's like, sorry, I don't remember. Because he takes his keys. Like, basically Nolte's in the car and Katie walks up to him and takes the keys or whatever and kind of like is talking to him. And because I remember this specifically, he says something as Nolte pulls away after you realize, oh, this Max. Katie is the guy that I defended. Did, you know, 14 years ago, whatever. But De Niro says something and it's really hard to hear. And I think we're not meant to hear it. There's something about the word loss, is there?

Nic

But it's you about loss.

Steve

I think that's what he says. But if you look. I mean, I went back a couple times, I rewound 10 seconds a few times to try to really catch it. And it's pretty deliberately lost under the sound of the car. Car pulls away and there's like, this. And so I think we're supposed to get the sense again of the tension, of the ominousness. But like, Sam, like Nolte's character, we don't really hear what's said. And so it's just ominous.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Which apparently, that's a word I'm gonna say.

Nic

I think he might repeat that later, though, when he's talking to the. Eventually, I think. Yeah. But, yeah, you don't know what's going on in his head and what their past is. One of the scenes that shows quickly is Sam Noldy's character is having a heated game of racquetball and, you know, with a co worker who, you know, is probably his work wife or whatever. Ileana Douglas, much, much younger than him. Beautiful in this movie. I mean, she does an incredible job. And she shows up in the Scorsese verse several times as well. Nothing. It's like nothing is officially happening. Although his wife would be furious if she was watching the racquetball cam, you know, and this is where they are before De Niro finds him, before he takes the keys from it. So he already knows. So he's following him to a degree. Like, now he knows who this person is.

Steve

Right, right. That's a good point. Yeah. I forgot that's the sequence there. But, yeah, so, yeah, so they have their interaction and, you know, Nolte ends up driving away. And I think the next scene is back at the house at that point, like, we were interacting with the mountains a little bit. We get this interaction between Dany and her mom and sort of like they're chatting and stuff and we get a. There's some comment in here somewhere about Dani haven't gotten in trouble. She has to do like summer school. She like got caught smoking pot, something like that. Like we get that, you know, she's not like a troubled kid, but like she's, you know, willing to, to, to break rules. And you know, she's not necessarily always making the best choices and pissed at.

Nic

Her parents for being in trouble for the summer.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

It's July 3rd, they point out.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and so the fireworks. Fireworks started behind them. The most ridiculous amount of fireworks.

Nic

The all finale fireworks.

Steve

It was ridiculous. It went on for three, four, five minutes of just straight finale fireworks. So I don't know. I. And was this supposed to be. Did Katie set those off?

Nic

Okay, this is a good point because at first I thought that this was something Katie did to get their attention because they look out the window. At some point, Lee looks out the window and sees that Katie's sitting on top of their wall. I'm technically not on your side kind of shit. And I was thinking, Katie gets out of jail two days ago and he has 200 grand to blow on this grand finale of fireworks.

Steve

Mr. Beast doesn't get this much fireworks for his videos. Right.

Nic

I don't understand it, but I think this is just the. In town, like this is how much they love fireworks in America in that town. And it's just all finale the whole time.

Steve

What else? What could be better, Right? It's all finale.

Nic

But it's very creepy that Katie is out here and he's on their wall. And I think this is where Sam goes to report to the police. Basically like what's happening. And they start to tell him what you find throughout the film is what he's getting is not. They're saying, yeah, that sucks. But it's technically not against the law.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And it goes to Katie's training to live like exactly. On the razor's edge of the law, which doesn't last forever.

Steve

No, it doesn't. Nobody does it for a while. Like, honestly, especially as we get to understand just how unhinged this guy is. The fact that he doesn't cross too many lines too quickly is pretty impressive because he really does sort of skirt the line for a while. Yeah. And so we learned. So he. So Sam ends up talking to, I think it's like his boss maybe at the law firm he works at, whatever character played by Fred Thompson. Great character actor of the era. Love watching Fred Thompson. Anything and they're talking a little bit about. So Sam, who is now, it looks like, you know, a private practice attorney, was a public defender years ago in Atlanta. He defended Katie. Katie was on trial for the rape and battery of a 16 year old girl. And basically he got them talked down to just battery, which was still 14 years in prison, like, you know, whatever. So. But what happened was, is that Sam admits to his boss here that at the time a report of some kind.

Nic

Was done, they referred to it as like a sexual history report and that.

Steve

And said that the victim was, quote, promiscuous and that he buried it. He didn't, he didn't bring it up in the defense because he believed. He even says later, I think that Katie admitted to other aggravated assaults for him as well. Admitted to him, but he basically buried it. And the reaction of Fred Thompson's character is so abhorrent to me.

Nic

It sucks.

Steve

Because what we realize is that the entire premise of this movie is based around a convicted. I mean, I guess he's not a convicted rapist, he's a convicted batterer. Okay, technically that was his conviction, but basically a rapist of children is upset that his public defender didn't tell Everybody that the 16 year old he raped and beat was promiscuous. Yeah, and the other adults in the room are agreeing that that would have gotten him out, like off, like no jail time. Like, holy crap. Like, look, I know, I know that the law does not treat women properly. Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not that naive. But wow, like this was shocking to me and I think, yeah, I don't think this plot works the same way if it was set today.

Nic

Well, it's kind of crazy work as well because they said that, that what the result. And first of all, like the whole time in your head you're like, where's the person to step in and be like, why the fuck does it matter what somebody's history is when a person does like this like horrific thing to them that it would have mattered in the universe of this movie. They find out, oh, if the report turned up that this woman, this victim had had three sexual partners in the last month or whatever, right? Like, who gives a shit, right? So like, what jury that in this world there's a jury that would be like, well, you know, he did beat her within an inch of her life, but she had, you know, two Tinder dates. Like, what the fuck?

Steve

We also remember, not only are we seeing this movie from 34 years, you know, removed, but the trial they're talking about. And the COVID.

Nic

That's actually.

Steve

We are talking about the mid to 70s in Georgia.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And so.

Nic

So it's even further back. So I guess when the film takes.

Steve

Place, not any less disgusting and horrifying, but it maybe is more like. Oh, yeah, I guess it was that up that far back.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So anyway, that. That's. That's good stuff.

Nic

Yeah. And that. That's important background. So I'm glad we went into that. And I'm sorry this is. None of this is comfortable to talk about or hear about, but, you know, this is what happens in the movie. And.

Steve

Let'S move on to a happier moment that comes shortly after some of this stuff, which is when I do believe we find he gets a call at work and has to rush home. Sam does because his. Lee's dog is dead.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So 26 minutes into this thing, they've already killed the dog, which was not easy for me to do. I don't deal well with. With. With. With dogs in particular. I mentioned this in the River Wild. Like, if that dog hadn't survived, I was going to be shutting the movie off. Well, I didn't shut this movie off.

Nic

Because it never really made the dog a character.

Steve

Yeah. The dog shows up in one scene. Obviously means a ton to Lee. We hear that it's like her dog. So, you know, and it's still painful and everything, but. But yeah, so we know the dog is dead. They said the vet said it looked like poison. The dog was poisoned.

Nic

And so, yeah, so Sam again, he contacted. So he ran into Katie. And Katie was basically Katie in a very nice, like 65 Mustang convertible. I don't know where his cash was buried.

Steve

When he first they talk about something about his mom died while he went away.

Nic

That as a joke. Okay. So that's a real thing.

Steve

That's. That's what. Yeah, because there was like. There was like. We saw bank statements at one point. He has clearly has cash.

Nic

Okay. And Katie is like dressing and acquiring things and acting in the exact way he would think a really cool guy from the day he went to jail would act.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

And Katie's basically telling Sam, like, I want some compensation. Like, you took away 14 years of my life. And Sam's like, like, I'll give you what is. How does $10,000, just the most out of touch, like, you know, offer. And. And then he says, you know, $50,000. And Katie's like, basically works out to $10 a day.

Steve

Not even minimum wage.

Nic

Minimum wage. So this is set up before we find out that the dog is poisoned. So Sam, obviously, because Katie, during that conversation is like, I gotta go, and zips away. And then Sam tells the police friend, this guy poisoned my dog.

Steve

Right?

Nic

And the cops like, yeah, that's only a fine.

Steve

That's right. Unless he broke in. If he broke in to do it, then we can get him on trespassing, whatever, breaking and entering. But he's like, well, no, I don't. I don't have any evidence that he was like, in it. I don't know if he got in the house or not. I don't think he did. It's do anything then, you know, and yeah, that's Robert Mitchum's character is like, you're a lawyer. You know better than that. Like, we can't just, you know, arrest a guy because you think he might have done something.

Nic

But if you are going to poison a dog, I guess the lesson is trebuchet, poison into the yard or something. Instead of walking there and putting it.

Steve

In front of the dog, tie it to one of the fireworks set off near their house. Yeah.

Nic

Oh, God. So he's basically pointed out in the police lineup. They bring Max in there and he's behind. Sam is behind the mirror identifying Max and he just. It kind of shows his tattoos and close up, for some reason, they strip him all the way down. And he's in a leopard print Speedo, which, again, there's a couple of moments in this movie, which is a serious movie, not a comedy. That made me laugh hard. That was one where I had to pause it because I missed the next 10 seconds after that.

Steve

Yeah. Pretty ridiculous. Again, I think harkening back to his 70s heyday of all his raping and batterying, battering people. Yeah. How to say that? But yeah, so, yeah, so he. He points him out. Yeah, that's the guy. But the cops are like, we can't do anything unless he does something and we don't have any evidence that he's done anything. And so Sam's getting more and more frustrated. Nic Nolte, really, this is not a surprise to me when you think about the kind of guy Nolte is. But he plays going unhinged pretty well. The progression of sort of his, like, you know, furor over this and it's just absolute madness over this is interesting to watch for sure.

Nic

Yeah. He definitely actually, you know, this movie. I feel like even though the quality of this movie is much better, has a lot in common with Pacific Heights, where, like, there's the person who's Antagonizing the main characters by, like, just pushing things to the edge of the law where I can drive you insane, but to a point where nobody can do anything to me about it.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And. And I think that's interesting. I wonder, you know, that came out a couple years later. I'm sure it borrowed a bunch of crap from this movie because it didn't try hard.

Steve

And it's super interesting too, because when you really make that comparison. I like the comparison too, because everybody in this movie is at least one step up in acting ability to everyone in that other movie. Keaton's fine, but De Niro's. De Niro, Right. And Matthew Modine and. Oh, God, who was it? Those two actors, they don't hold a candle to Nolte and Jessica Lang. So it is kind of an interesting.

Nic

It's like a great deal.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So we have a couple more scenes where Katie is, like, antagonizing them. They're at a parade and he's staring at Lee, at Sam's wife, in a very creepy way from across the parade to the point where, you know, he has plausible deniability. If Sam comes up to what? I'm just watching the parade.

Steve

I'm standing here.

Nic

And, you know, so he's like. He's there and he's just so close to them. And he gets a little too close now because the next scene we see is Max is flirting with Laurie, who was Sam's kind of almost mistress.

Steve

Almost like wants to be his mistress, I think is kind of the thing like she's into him, but. And he's into her, but he's sort of keeping a little bit. It. It sounds like. Of not going too far.

Nic

Right. Definitely somebody very important to say yes 100%.

Steve

And so, yeah, they're at a bar, it's Fourth of July, and she is clearly very drunk. He's drinking water and she is, you know, blotto. And. And she made a joke about saying something about debauchery, whatever. And she said, that's a three syllable word. Nothing. Myself. Debauchery is a force. Yeah. What is she talking. But I guess if you say it, debauchery.

Nic

But was that like a. Like a little joke about her being drunk or her making a joke at the time? Yeah, that's a form.

Steve

It's a four syllable work. What are you talking about? But yeah, so they're flirting and. And you know, he even tells her, like, hey, I just got out of prison, or what for? You know, they're kind of joking Back and forth. And he obviously is not telling her, oh, I gotta. I got out of prison after I, like, raped and beat somebody. Like, he's not, you know, doing that, obviously. They go back to her place.

Nic

He says, jokingly, I chop my wife up to 52 pieces.

Steve

But that's only because she told a joke joke where that was the punchline, and then he kind of repeated it back to her kind of thing. So it's just all playful. It's all very playful. She thinks, you know, hey, he's. He's attractive. He's. He's, you know, fit. Like, this is great.

Nic

He can drive me home.

Steve

He's showing interest. He's got a car. Hey, wonderful. They go back to her place, and it one of the most brutal. I mean, I felt so bad for. For Laurie, for the character, and honestly, for Ileana Douglas, too, like the actress. It's got to be a hard kind of scene to act, but she's basically really brutally attacked in her own home, and he, like, bites her cheek.

Nic

It escalates so quickly. I mean, this is where. Because I think nothing's happened to this point. Like, this is the most shocking thing that's happened in the film so far, because even the dog getting poisoned, we didn't see that. And the way that the score was at the beginning, it's like, dude, fucking get ready for something is what the music is telling us. And this was the point where I feel like the film finally caught up to, like, that blast of music at the very beginning.

Steve

Yeah, everything to this point was preamble. It was tension. It was, you know, hinting at darkness way more than anything in particular. And now we, for the first time, really get to see, okay, this is what the dangerous man this guy is. This is, you know, the man, you know, a man who is willing to hurt anyone in any way he can to get what he wants, whether that's just to hurt the person or to get to someone else, or in this case, he's really hurting her to try to hurt Sam. That's what's happening. And he has zero boundaries and zero, like, issues with just being the most brutal person ever. And, yeah, really, really rough.

Nic

And it doesn't have a fake name or a fake story, really, when he meets her, like, he's identifiable. He's not in costume, so it's like that he's doing this and knowing that she'll go to the authorities and.

Steve

Right.

Nic

Yeah. So. So we end up now Lori is in the hospital. And this is what I wrote down, is Lori's in the hospital blaming herself. Sam doesn't help her with that. No, he basically. Poor Laurie has just been through this horrific experience and she's saying. Blaming how many drinks she had or whatever. And again, there's no character to say, it doesn't fucking matter. Where's Robin Williams? We need that. It's not your fault, guy. Because. Because it is crazy the way that Sam responds because he's basically like, yeah, well, you drank too much, but you need to testify now.

Steve

Yeah, right.

Nic

Where's the human side of you, dude?

Steve

It's like, oh, hey, hey. Could you. This is really cool. I'm so glad this happened to you. Could you help me out? Because if you help me out, that'd be really good for me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sorry about you. Sorry. Sorry about your cheek. Sorry about your arm. Sorry about, you know, whatever, your everything. And. Oh. But. But if you could help me out, that'd be great. You really need to. And that was the other thing, too. It's like you need. It's like, she doesn't need to do a fucking thing, dude. Like, she's in this position because of him.

Nic

And he, you know, Pacific heights, parallel. I don't like Sam.

Steve

Oh, no.

Nic

So far in this, it's not like. It's not showing me he's a great dad. It's not showing me he's a great husband. He's. He's not a great lawyer.

Steve

Yeah, right? Yeah, clearly he's fucked up that part when he didn't properly defend his.

Nic

I know.

Steve

You know, the only, like, good person in this movie, I think the people I rooted for when it came down to it in this movie, like, definitely Juliet Lewis's Daniel Danielle character because she's a kid. So it's like you're rooting for her to, like, everything to be okay and, like, whatever. But also, she makes decisions. You're like, God, fucking.

Nic

Why did you do that?

Steve

But Joe, Don Baker's character, who we meet a little later, and Lee Jessica Lang, like, those are the ones who I think are like, I can actually root for these people. I don't like. Sam is a bad guy. He's making bad choices, you know, and it's hard to root for him other than, you know, his destruction would be horrific for his daughter and for his wife as well.

Nic

Laurie won't testify.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And Sam goes back to the cops, and he's like, you know, what the hell can I do there? And the lieutenant's kind of like, well, you didn't hear this from me. But maybe if you draw him out of hiding and shoot him by accident, that wouldn't be the worst thing. And so basically suggests taking the law into his own hands. And then Sam's like, wait, are you telling me I should be a vigilante? He's like, what vigilante? I now have a hojdava. And so then he hires the Joe Don Baker character.

Steve

Great Robert Mitchum impression, by the way. Just there.

Nic

I used to do Mitchum in high school. Killed.

Steve

Spot on. Yeah. So he goes to Joe Don Baker, who is a private investigator that he gets referred to just as a character actor. I don't think I've ever seen Joe Don Baker in anything and not loved him in it. He's like a Stephen Toblewski that way. He's just always enjoyable.

Nic

And his name is so perfect for how he looks.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

He's like Dave Wanstadt Award winner. A guy that looks so much like his name.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

That it's undeniable. I love.

Steve

Joe Don Baker is not Joseph Donald Baker. He is Joe Don.

Nic

He's not Jay Donald. He's not. Yeah, none of that stuff.

Steve

So he's a private investigator, and Sam hires him to, like, keep an eye on. On Max, on Katie, and, you know, track him and try to figure out what. What they can use to try and, like, catch him in something that they can actually, like, you know, swear out a warrant for him or, you know, get the cops to do something. So Sam goes back home after talking to. To Joe Don Baker. I remember the character's name, Corsic or something like that, or what's it.

Nic

Yeah, I just wrote private investigator in my notes. Joe Don, he's JDB in my.

Steve

In my notes. So. Yeah, but. But so he goes. Sam goes home, he's having dinner with Lee and Danielle. Just kind of talking about how, hey, everything's gonna be fine now. Yeah. There's that creepy guy. He's, like, following me, like, whatever. But I got a PI on it now. Everything's gonna be fine. We got anything to worry about. And this is the part you talk about pieces where you laughed when it's like, Not a funny thing movie. The way they react to the phone ringing and they all jump like an explosion has just happened. I, like, laughed out loud because they were all so terrified of the sound of the phone. Yeah.

Nic

And there's a. There's kind of a little montage of him that happens a couple times where he's securing the house or whatever, and he's just, like, flipping these blinds shut. And then locking the most flimsy looking doors I've ever seen in my life. It's basically like a venetian blind is their protection between them and Max, Katie. But yeah, him and Lee end up. Sam and Lee are having a conversation now because the call, I think this was Lori calling from the hospital.

Steve

That call, I think was Joe Don Baker revealing some info about. About Katie being at home and like, he was following him or whatever. But then later, just, just after that, Sam calls Laurie.

Nic

Okay, right where he had to call from the bedroom phone.

Steve

So he calls Laurie to talk to her and just kind of check in on her, see how she's doing, whatever. But he's like whispering, he's being conspiratorial, etc. And at one point, he realizes he looks up and in the reflection of the bedroom window, he sees that Lee is standing in the hallway, right. You know, right in the doorway to the bedroom. And she is like. Loses it on him because we, as we learn he cheated on her when they lived in Atlanta. It's one of the reasons that they left there and kind of restarted every, you know, their life, his profession, you.

Nic

Know, when Lee sees him or during their conversation when they're kind of fighting with each other, Sam drops this line, I'm not fucking her in any way. Which is about the least credible sentence you could ever say.

Steve

I did not have sexual relations with that woman. But, yeah, so they're fighting and then it's getting loud, it's getting crazy. And finally Danielle looks up from down below and they're like, oh, everything's okay, honey. Everything's okay. She's like, yeah, right. She runs off to a room, and I love this bit when Daniel, she turns on the TV and the stereo, and the TV is definitely showing Been Caught Stealing the video for Been Caught Stealing by Jane's Addiction. I didn't recognize the song.

Nic

It was Patience by Guns N Roses.

Steve

Oh, okay, there you go.

Nic

All right.

Steve

But it was just like such a. Like, why would you turn on MTV and another song and like, listen. Like, listen, watch. It's very strange.

Nic

I was. You know, sometimes you'll. You'll see something in digital and you know that the rights change between when you'd watched it on VHS back in the day or whatever. This isn't that. But when I first saw that, I kind of thought, did, like, Perry Forell say no? You know, I don't want any part of this movie?

Steve

Or what? Like, it's like trying to watch reruns of Beavis and Butthead. You Never get the videos.

Nic

Exactly. Or the one where they cut all the music out.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

So, yeah, she's watching the. The Ben Caught Stealing video. If you. It syncs up perfectly with Guns N Roses. Patience. It's funny. Like wizard of Oz and Dark side of the Moon. Okay, so Sam, this is another part of the movie that made me laugh out loud. Sam and Lee are having this. This big discussion and fight. So Sam, he's in the doghouse, as he should be.

Steve

Right.

Nic

Because you can't go anywhere near that. Like, if he had been caught, you know, cheating on his wife before, and now he's having this kind of like, emotional, like, no, I'm sorry, you're not allowed to do that.

Steve

Agreed.

Nic

He ends up trying to. Trying to turn it around and say, hey, no, Lee, you know, we're going to get through. Through this, just the two of us as a team. And then it hard cuts to Sam Nolte sleeping on the couch.

Steve

Yeah, that's right.

Nic

I was like, dude, that's a genuine comedic moment. And it's cut through how, like nasty. Like the last 20 minutes of the movie event.

Steve

Yeah, we really needed a couple. A couple. There are some. And this is probably, you know, partly the screenwriting, but partly it's Scorsese and the choices, you know, that he's making on pacing and things. And there are a few moments like that that kind of come in and give us a chance to just catch our breaths, you know, because there are so many parts of this movie I found myself holding my breath through, you know, and having that little. Yeah, kind of funny moment of like, you know, and he even does like the Yosemite saying, like, you know, just mumbling curse words himself as he gets comfortable on the couch. So very, very good stuff.

Nic

So the PI now encounters Katie and is basically giving him a strong advisory to leave town. Katie doesn't like this.

Steve

Katie makes him in the bar and like, buys him a drink. And John realizes, God damn it, he made me. I got to go talk to him now. And yeah, he basically tell him, like, get out of this town, you know, that whole deal. And again, he's a really well read, well, well spoken person. So it's an interesting conversation.

Nic

And the move to like buy ice cream and buy drinks, you know, the police are writing down a report. Yeah, this guy's after my fitness. What did he do?

Steve

He treated us to ice cream.

Nic

It's like, sir, I don't think that's the biggest crime we have going on. But, yeah, you know, it's A really tense standoff with the two of them, because you know now, like, what Katie's been shown to be capable of. And Joan on Baker has had an itchy trigger finger this entire time. Like, he lives to justifiably shoot.

Steve

Yes. He's all about, stand your ground, yo, dude.

Nic

He is the number one Zimmerman out here. And. And, like, he's. Yeah. So we have a very tense scene where, you know, Katie is making, or the PI Is making actual threats to Katie, and Katie's still, like, staying within legal limits is what he's saying back. So he's, like, collecting all these, like, actionable threats that people are making against him.

Steve

This is Joe Don Baker's best line in this movie is in this conversation, too. And he says, anytime you're feeling squirrely, you just jump.

Nic

Yes.

Steve

I love that line. I got to work on my JDB impression.

Nic

That's good, though. It's no my Mitchum, but it's all right. So now we're back at Sam's house, and Lee is outside getting the mail. It reminds me of a very, like, a Billy Madison it's dirty magazine day mailbox, because so far from the house.

Steve

Or it's like Forrest Gump's mailbox, too. It's like, the same way.

Nic

And Katie pulls up in his Mustang. He's like, oh, I just found this down the road. And it's the dog's collar. The dog who had died several days ago. So it's really tense. And I don't think Lee doesn't recognize him at first, not right away. And she's, like, a little kind of charmed by him. Like, he has a way about him that's not, like, immediately off putting.

Steve

I think there's an interesting thing here that they're showing us and telling us, which is, you know, 70s, 80s, and 90s, right? Everybody had this idea of violent criminals as being, like, really dumb, really unintelligent, you know, not well spoken, not well read. They couldn't possibly speak like this or be charming.

Nic

Right.

Steve

And so the fact that he is charming and, you know, eloquent in many ways, I think really disarmed people. And I don't know that that would be the case as much anymore. But. But certainly at the time, I think that was sort of the accepted, you know, stereotype of convicted felons.

Nic

He can't be a bad guy. He's. He's articulate.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. That kind of thing, which is obviously ludicrous. And so. But yeah, she. It's as he starts talking about Details. He says stuff about like, oh, I can see that dog now, all shaggy, sitting at your feet while you draw your little sketches. And that's when she realizes, oh, you're the guy. Yeah, you're the guy who's been following my husband. Like, what the fuck? You know? And of course this, the scariest part of this scene is that Danny comes running out of the house to say something like, mom, there's something on the phone or something like, I don't remember what is. But we see Katie clock her and make sure that, you know, he sees her. But he drives off before she can see him. Yeah. So he speeds off. So at this point, Sam and Lee obviously know Max Katie by sight, but Danny still doesn't. She didn't see him at the parade, she didn't see him at the ice cream parlor. And now she hasn't seen him in front of the house. She does not know what he looks like, but obviously, you know, she knows that he exists in a theoretical sense. There's this guy out there, but she doesn't know him. But now he obviously, if there was any doubt before, he knows everyone now. Yeah, exactly.

Nic

Super risky by Katie. It shows what a tough guy he is. Is he, you know, talking to a woman who's a graphic artist and talks about her work as your little sketches? That'll get you killed, buddy. Her area, this is unrelated to the plot, but in the setting in the house, it only shows it a couple times. But her little, like her, her little sketch area is amazing.

Steve

It's a sunroof.

Nic

It's a beautiful like all window kind of sunroom with her drawing desks and everything. So let's see, Katie speeds off and then, you know, this is of course reported to Sam. And Sam's taking advice from the private investigator and he says, well, I can hire a couple guys to do a hospital job. And I like hospital job as a phrase. So basically, you know, he's going to beat him up so bad. And he.

Steve

So Sam's considering, but he kind of.

Nic

Says, like, nobody's kind of like, yeah, I'm glad to know it's an option. It's nice to know it's out there.

Steve

Yeah. So, yeah, so then we, I think we skip ahead. It's the evening Danny's in bed. She's like, gotten ready for bed. She's like watching MTV still, whatever, like kids do. She's got a retainer in, like, she's ready to like, go to sleep. And the phone rings things, and it's Katie, we can Tell from his voice right away. Right. But she's never heard him talk. So you know, he says like, oh, is this, is this Danielle Bowden or whatever? And she's like, oh yeah, hi. And he basically introduces himself over the phone as her new drama teacher. So she's in two different summer school classes. She has to take English, she has to take drama. And so he introduces her as his drama as her new drama teacher and kind of is really just flirting with her over the phone saying things that, you know, she wants to hear. At one point, you know, he says he plays her a song on his side of the call. I can't remember what it was now. I'm sure it was important but like, but I want to say while you look it up just real quick. He is hanging upside down from his ankles. It seems like. Yeah. Not quite sure what's going on. But it's bizarre looking when we see his side of the question doing like.

Nic

Batman sit ups or whatever. I think the song is it Do Right Woman, Do Right man by Aretha Franklin.

Steve

That's what it was.

Nic

Great song, by the way. Good choice. Yeah. What a, what a weird guy. I mean they do have him do this like kind of unhuman behavior that makes Katie just extra creepy.

Steve

He seems extra, you know, it's like, like this is how fit he is. Right. Like, and if you're, and if you're, if you're going to be attacked by someone, you'd rather they be an out of an out of shape overweight slob and not somebody who's like so physically fit that they can just hang upside down and do, you know, push ups and pull ups and blah blah, blah, which way and stuff.

Nic

It's like that's that much scarier smoking a giant cigar.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So this is, this is the, the chunk of the movie where Juliet Lewis is really earning her accolades and, and she is just incredible.

Steve

Yeah, well, so he tells her because she, he said I'll see you tomorrow. And she said, oh, that's like room 103 or whatever. And he goes, oh no, no, we got moved to the theater so I'll see you there. You know, so. And apparently the school, the theater school in the fucking basement or something is bizarre. But like, whatever. So she says, okay, cool. More and more the ominous factor is just continuing to push up. Like every time I thought to myself, man, this movie could not get any more tense. This get any more like menacing. It did. It kept getting more tense and more menacing. And this was one of the major parts of the movie that really, really pushed that. So, yeah, so she goes to school the next day, right? That's where we're at. She's talking to a friend of hers, has to go off to another class and she goes down to the theater, so I got to go downstairs for a drama or whatever. And she goes down and sure enough there's like nobody there, you know, in the theater. The set, the stage appears to be set for something like into the woods maybe or something.

Nic

It's like a little cabin thing or.

Steve

Something like a Hansel and Gretel kind of idea, something like that. But it's a very like fantasy fairy tale looking kind of cottage and forest scene. And he's just sitting in the doorway of the little cottage smoking something. It looks like, it looks like a cigarette at first, but you know, and she walks up to him and is like, hey, you can't smoke grass in the school, you know, because she got busted doing that. Right. And of course, apparently I'm guessing he knew that or was he just, you know, taking a chance that she would be interested in the pot?

Nic

Yeah, I wonder if he knew that, like, because it never really shows the degree to which Katie was like listening in on the family or there's stuff that he could have picked up on from conversations if he, if he was listening in. But yeah, I mean, maybe he's just taking a wild stab in the dark that kind of a bad 15 year old would be into. Into that.

Steve

Not a terrible, not a terrible guess, frankly.

Nic

So, yeah, he offers it to Danny now. So then Danny takes a puff off the joint, Katie, just to cement himself as a creepy tough guy, puts it out on his tongue to give it to her. Yeah. Which, okay, sorry, that's trash now, buddy. And it's so creepy and sexual like the way that he's doing everything, but it's not explicitly. So it is this tension that almost feels like, you know, you like have to pee so bad and you're in like a public restroom and you think that the person, like the last person left, so it's your turn to go finally. But there's one more person and you have to like do that power holding. Like, oh, shit. That's what I felt during this whole time. It was like, oh my, what is going to happen? We saw, we saw what Katie could do.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

They're alone in this place and like we're further along in the film so he's going to start getting crazy.

Steve

Yeah, we know things are going to continue to ramp up and this was the scene for me, this scene more than any others. There were several others that were good. This was the scene to me that I had me say, God damn it, Juliette Lewis is such a good actress. Yeah. This scene in the theater, there was a moment where she, you know, the character recognized who he was sooner than I thought she would. On less information, there was like a moment where I was like, damn, she's actually really smart. Like she picked up. Oh, you're that guy. Like kind of a lot like Lee did before. Like really quickly, like when a little bit of, of a breadcrumb is tossed in front of them, they pick it up pretty fast.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Which I think was a really interesting, really smart choice by, you know, the director of the screenwriters and the actors involved is to have these characters all be pretty damn sharp.

Nic

Any super gullible person, I mean, it was like, it was strength against strength during this entire thing. One thing with, with Juliet Lewis's Danny character that I just want to point out, since we get to point out little flaws in the movie. There's a point. And this is also to break the tension in the pod a little bit. Let's take a breath. Katie is talking to her about her dog and she says her dog just passed away. And he says, what kind of dog was it? And she was like, oh, I don't know, like a scruffy. No, no. 15 year old kid with a dog does not know every goddamn breed of dogs.

Steve

But it was her mom's dog. They make a big deal about a bee, Leah's dog.

Nic

Unless you intentionally didn't learn dogs because you hated your mom's dog. But I feel like like every kid would be. They can't wait to tell you what breed of dog they have, you know, that's their pleasure.

Steve

Nice. Thank you, John. Yeah, no, I also want to mention since we're talking about little things in the phone conversation the night before, her retainer continually pops in and out of her mouth as she's talking. Different cuts and different takes. It's in or it's out or it's. And she takes it out and puts it back in. But in between those two things, it's both in and out several times. Just some poor continuity editing there, but that's okay.

Nic

Her orthodontist hates this movie.

Steve

Hates this weird one trick. Weird one weird trick.

Nic

Okay, so now, now things are, are very tense and getting very weird.

Steve

Well, this was the scene too where we have the kiss, right? The nominated best kiss awards is here. And this whole scene that theater was Incredibly hard to watch, just in general.

Nic

Really even knowing what happened. Like, well.

Steve

And I didn't know, so I was kind of like, yeah, what is going to happen? Like, is, does he attack her here? Like, how far does he go here? Like, I felt like I knew how far he was willing to go eventually, all the way, basically, as horrifically as possible. But I was a little bit like, is he still setting things up or is this where he attacks her?

Nic

The daughter's the worst thing he could do, so he shouldn't have losing his own daughter. Yeah, right. Yeah. So you're thinking, like, is she going to get kidnapped or whatever. And Katie says to her in, like, he kind of switches at a certain point where he gets, like, a degree creepier. The way that he's looking at her and the way that he's talking to her and he's says, do you mind if I put my arm around you? And it's really tough. It's very, very tough to watch this.

Steve

She leaves. Like, he ends up going back and goes back out the way she.

Nic

But during the entire time, you're horrified at everything that's happening and you think that something really horrific is going to happen. So well done by the movie makers.

Steve

And then I can't remember. Do you remember why Sam ends up deciding to tell Joe Don Baker, yeah, go ahead and do it. Was it because. It's because Danny tells. Oh, that's right. Because Danny gets home and Lee finds the pot in the joint in her bag.

Nic

They don't even know about that encounter.

Steve

Right. So.

Nic

So.

Steve

So that Lee and Sam are told. Danny tells them about that. That's who it was. And that's when Sam goes. Calls up Joe Don Baker and goes, get your. Get your guys. Get your hospital job. I want this guy gone.

Nic

Get your three guys.

Steve

Get your guys whatever thousand dollars, whatever you need. Like, fine, let's do this. And so we get to that. That's kind of what's next is. Is this attack on Katie and I. When Sam showed up at the attack, he's like, hiding behind a dumpster to.

Nic

Like, watch Dumbest Thing.

Steve

I couldn't believe that shit. That was the stupidest thing I ever seen in my life.

Nic

It was crazy. So, yeah, the PI senses three tough guys who are all armed with clue weapons. One guy has a chain, one guy a pipe, I think. I think one guy has a candlestick. And they're trying to beat up Katie with this. And they're doing a pretty good job job. And Sam hiding out watching this. And look, I Understand, you want to hide out, you want to see it happen. But if you're trying to hide, don't be smoking a fucking cigarette at the same time. Even though this guy's an aggressive cigar smoker, he's going to pick up on that, you know, and. Yeah. So he's hiding behind there and this is a pretty good fight scene. And KD starts to turn the tides and then he's beating up these three guys because in addition to being like really in shape and really touching stuff, like he's a psycho, he does not experience pain.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

That. It's not slowing him down.

Steve

Yeah, yeah. By the way, for the record.

Nic

Yes.

Steve

You're going to try to witness the hospital job you have, you know, purchased for delivery to another person. I would highly recommend sitting in a dark parked car, you know, across the street.

Nic

Way to go.

Steve

Because then if they do notice that you're there, you know, you can get away.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Or right.

Nic

Set up like a trail camera where you know it's going to be the night before.

Steve

And then just rewind.

Nic

A couple of things here. But when, when Sam had called the PI's office, Jodon Baker, to call in the three guys, he had on his desk very prominently a crossword puzzle, a Pepto Bismol and a Jim Beam. And then he mixed himself up, which we see a couple times, a Beam and Pepto.

Steve

It sounds so disgusting.

Nic

It's just they love showing guys like Chug and Pepto, though. That was a, that was a real trope there.

Steve

Pept or what's the heartburn one like?

Nic

I don't know, Tums and Maalox.

Steve

Maalox.

Nic

That was Mahlox.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Back on the crossword tip, because this kind of drove me crazy. In Danny's room, there's the usual teen movie posters and heartthrobs or whatever. One poster that she had was one of those poster sized crossword puzzles, like a giant crossword puzzle. The classic Christmas stocking stuffer piece of crap that you never do. Right. A, those things stink. B, this was not only had not a single square filled in, it was hung like at a 45 degree angle. So it's not functional.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And you didn't fill it in. It's just terrible artwork. I don't like it.

Steve

Is it decorative? Does she like crossword puzzles that much?

Nic

I don't know. And we just had a crossword on Joe Don Baker's desk. So I don't know. We're trying to have some continuity anyway, so we're in court now. Because Kaden, Katie, you know, knows that he sent those guys to beat him up. Right. He didn't end up encountering him, which was very. Another very tense scene as Katie's creeping back. Are you here?

Steve

Are you here, counselor?

Nic

Counselor, you here? And. But he doesn't. Even though he, he was like, he knew he was there and he could have.

Steve

I feel like, I feel like he did know he was there. He wanted Sam to know. He knows he was there, but he wasn't going to do anything because he wants to come out the of legally and he knows that if he then goes and beat Sam up, that's going to come back on him. He's the ex con. The other guy's a lawyer. Right. You know, it's like you have to try to prove that he's the one that hired him. That's not going to be easy to prove. Yeah, right. But what we do know is that he would have beat Sam's ass. He would have gone to jail. So I think that was a thing where it was like he knew it. He knew he was there. He wanted Sam to know, I know you're there and I'm not going to do anything. I'm walking away and I'm going to get you in court. I'm pretty sure that was the, the vibe there. Right. That's part of case 80s thing where he is able to, you know, until he goes way too far. Able to kind of walk this line of gray area legality for a while where he can be menacing and disgusting and, and whatever and all these different things, but not, you know, technically, at least by the standards of the time and place he's in break the law. And I think that would have been, that obviously would have been going too far if he'd actually like, you know, beat Sam with the pipe. Now he's going back to jail. He doesn't get to do what he wants to.

Nic

Yeah, I mean he does incredible discipline. I mean, for his faults, Max Katie is an incredibly disciplined person a lot of times. So Sam, he wants to file for a restraining order and he calls his go to attorney and the attorney says, well, I have a conflict. I'm sorry. I was actually hired earlier today by Max Katie.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nic

And then we were shown the little courtroom scene with the judge adjudicating. The attorney that Katie had hired, that Sam had attempted to hire is played by the great Greg Gregory. Out of the way, Peck. And great to see him. Great to see him playing a lawyer once again.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And in his wheelhouse and it turns out the judge is like, well, you know, I know what I need to know. And I will rule that there should be a restraining order where Sam's not allowed to go within 500 yards of Katie. Oh, shit.

Steve

I don't even know. There's something they could do. Like if they're at a hearing for a different thing, can they just make up a new thing? Like, is this a string? I mean, I guess unless Katie counter motioned or something to like, do. I don't know how that works. But it seemed odd because Sam seemed surprised because the guy said, because if.

Nic

That'S not what the court. It's not for who gets the restraining order. It's for. Do you get this or not?

Steve

Yeah, seems strange. But anyway, the end result is, yes, now, now Max Katie has a restraining order or a personal protection order, what they call it. But against Sam Bauer. In for 5, 500 yards. Sam can't come within 500 of max. Not the right around.

Nic

Exactly.

Steve

So. And it doesn't cover the rest of Sam's family, right. The way that potentially the other direction it would. It would be like, you can't come within the X yards of my daughter or wife.

Nic

Right.

Steve

So. So that's not good for him.

Nic

Very not good. And okay, so I think I have the name of the PI. Is it Kursik? Because I wrote down the quote here. Because right after that's ruled, I think it's another hard cut to say to Nolte on the phone saying, karsik, I.

Steve

Want to a gun. That's right, to the PI.

Nic

So the plan that they end up coming up with, which is, you know, a decent plan, is all right, Katie is not gonna come into the house while Sam's there, Right. If Sam pretends. But we know that he's gonna try to fuck with our family, right? So if Sam pretends to leave town all the way to like getting on the plane and walking through the gate and stuff, and then Katie's gonna try to pull some shit. And we can get him that, because if he breaks into the house, then we can shoot him. And that's our plan.

Steve

And Sam has to go to like North Carolina or somewhere out of state in order to. I don't know why it's out of state. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's just another part of the state. But he has to go somewhere. He has to fly, so it's pretty far away. But he has to go because he's. They're threatening to disbar him over his treatment of Katie.

Nic

Right.

Steve

Basically, the Gregory Peck character has, like, filed for a motion with the American Bar association to disbar Sam. So he has to go deal. And he says, I'm gonna be gone for like, three days. You know, I got to be there so I can, like, defend myself. All this stuff. And Joe Don Baker is kind of like, well, how important is that to use? Like, well, if I ever want to practice law again, it's important. And it's kind of like.

Nic

It's like, how important are you doing, like, now?

Steve

Right. Like. Like, how it's your family. You think this guy's ready to kill people? Is this what's more important? So he decides, yeah, I'll do it. And so I don't really think, look, this could never work in the era of tsa. Obviously, there's that part of it, because Katie, like, walk, walks up to the actual, like, gate to ask if he got on the plane. And the person ends up giving him the info that, that Sam did get on the plane, he'll be back the day after tomorrow. All this stuff when she shouldn't have. But, like, how the hell did Sam get back out of the airport without Katie seeing him? It's so bizarre. And they. I know, though. I know. We're told the Bowden's don't know Katie's there. Yeah, they're just playing. They're going through the motions. Going all the way through to, like, make it look as good as possible in case he is. But we know he is there. Like, he's literally, like, you know, on a level above, watching them from above.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And so how the hell did Sam get back into the car? He ends up driving, being driven home, you know, hiding behind the seat or whatever.

Nic

Well, I think when Katie saw Sam get, like, going to the gate, he went down to the desk to find it to do the. Oh, hey, I was supposed to give something to this.

Steve

Oh. So he didn't go to the gate.

Nic

He went down the check in desk to the. Yeah, I'm sorry. To the check in desk.

Steve

Okay. See, I thought he went all the way into the gate. That's why I was.

Nic

Yeah, so I think he was like, at a different place, but. Yeah. So Sam is ducked down in the car, and then they go back home. And then the plan is we got Kurzyk the PI. He's going to sit there with a gun and stay awake all night and drink Pepto and Jim Beam, and he's going to set a bunch of home alone traps. And when Katie comes in the house, it's going to alert him that he's there and he could shoot him and kill him.

Steve

Also awake all day, by the way, clearly not napping, not sleeping, not being.

Nic

Relieved, not hiring another guy. And Danny's not into this because Danny had this experience with Katie and she hasn't fully divulged like, like the extent of their interaction. And she's basically partially because she was convinced by his bullshit, but also because if my dad hates this guy and I hate my dad, this guy must be kind of cool.

Steve

So, yeah. So basically, he sets up Kursik Jonah Baker. He sets up this set of wires that it's like a fishing line along all the doors, all the windows, all the shutters and everything. And then wraps it around the tank. Teddy bear. So if the teddy bear moves at all, he can just look at the teddy bear and like every door and window on the ground floor, I guess, is somehow, you know, covered by this wire contraption setup that he's got going. And so at one point, it does start. The bear starts moving. And I even wrote down, I'm like, dude, it's just the wind. Jdb. Like, clearly, the way the thing is moving, it's clearly like the wind is moving a shutter, like, whatever. And so he goes and he's snooping. He's trying to stay low, and he's like, whatever. And he finds. And sure enough, it's just the shutters kind of opening, closing. So he turns it, you know, he locks it. Lead us through. Because I'm like, I don't remember the movie well enough.

Nic

Okay, Danny finds that sexist book.

Steve

Oh, that's right. On the.

Nic

That's a quick thing. So we know that Katie's around, right? She found this book that he mentioned. Meanwhile, the PI is like, you know, I've had enough sneaking around the house with my revolver. I'm going to go into the kitchen and mix myself up a cocktail.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

So he goes into the kitchen and.

Steve

He sees the housekeeper.

Nic

He sees the housekeeper there at the sink and he's like, oh, hey, you know, I didn't. And then all of a sudden, the maid turns around and. And Katie has doubt fired himself.

Steve

No, it's Norman Bates. It's. It's a Norman Bates thing.

Nic

He's being psycho. So my only reference is Mrs. Doubtfire. Damn it. But yeah, dude, it is crazy. I, I again, I had to pause the movie because I was dying laughing, like, I think I almost fell off the couch laughing at this because it's just so Silly.

Steve

The sweater and the wig and, like.

Nic

He did every part of the outfit. That's the thing. It wasn't just, let me throw a general coat and a wig on. Like, he really did it. And he had, like, a very matching wig.

Steve

Yeah. I don't know where he got the wig that looks so much like the woman's hair, because it's not like he scalped her. We see her later, see her body later, and she has her hair. Because I would have accepted if they shown her with, like, a wound on her head and no hair, that he had, like, taken her hair and.

Nic

Yeah, he has, like, qualities, for sure.

Steve

Yeah. But. But nope, Just. Just happened to have a wig that looked like their housekeeper, so.

Nic

So, of course. Of course, you know. Know, Bobby Doubtfire shoots kac.

Steve

No, no, no. Well, first. First he gets him. Garrottes him with the piano wire. There was a missing piano wire from earlier, so he's got that around his throat. And then in the struggle. Yeah. He sort of is able to point.

Nic

He kind of.

Steve

Joe Don Baker. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nic

And then they see that. That the Graciela, the maid, is also dead in her quarter. So Katie's gone, and Sam and the family, and they were doing a terrible job. I. I feel like when this commotion is happening and Danny's like, mom, dad, what's going. They're like, get back in your room. It's like, no, we all go in the same room.

Steve

Right. What are you doing?

Nic

That's so crazy. So this is another thing where this movie became, like, a comedy very briefly. So we had the Doubtfire moment, and then Sam comes down to discover these dead people in the kitchen and does some of the silliest blood slip in this side of Chevy Chase as Gerald Ford. Man, it was nuts. He was like. Like, I thought those. Those sound effects would start playing.

Steve

It was so bad. It was. It was really dumb. First of all, just the walking over to him. Why are you approaching the corpse to begin with? And, like, what are you planning on doing? And then not being careful of, like, stepping through the blood and, like, I don't know if it was. If the idea was that it was, you know, darker in that room than it seemed to us, the audience, so that we could see what's going on. But to them, it was, like, essentially pitch black. See the floor? I mean, I guess. But that wasn't made clear. That's something I have to, like, invent in my head to make that make sense, because it was just. Yeah. He ends up falling into it. Lee comes over to him, she falls and they're both basically swimming around in Joe Don Baker's like life essence, basically.

Nic

It's crazy. It's to the point that I'm sure the credits have stunt double for Mr. Nolte because that scene like needs its own. The professional faller there. Jesus. So they decide like, we have to get the hell out of here. We're leaving. I don't know if they own a houseboat or whatever, whatever the deal is, but they end up driving like looks like a couple hour drive to the.

Steve

Coast or to this river.

Nic

They go to the river, right. And they have a pretty sick houseboat. I mean I'm kind of. That would be fun to rent for a weekend.

Steve

The boat's named Moana.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

It's like, I wonder if there's some kind of connection to the Disney film.

Nic

None of the tone of this film.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

I don't know, maybe they'll imprison Maui and he gets out of jail. Jail for the third one or something.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Yeah. So they're on this boat.

Steve

Well, hold on. Before they get to the. To the boat. Because they're driving and they're trying to stay away from Katie. Obviously they're getting away from him. And we realize that he is like literally strapped himself to the underside of their car. Apparently between wherever they were coming from and wherever they were going to. There's not a single speed bump anywhere. So Katie was fine, but you know, it was pretty diabolical to have to. And of course I. This was one of those moments that, you know, I recognized from the Simpsons episode because Sideshow Bob does that underneath the Simpsons car. But it was still like. And I think is hit by speed bumps and rocks and etc in that. But it was still kind of like I remembered it, but I'd forgotten it in the moment.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And so it was like, oh, wow. Like this is a diabolical dude who can just hang out under there strapped in or not.

Nic

Yeah. And he's so committed. Like the elements don't bother him. Like he doesn't get tired. He. He doesn't get, you know, bored or like it's nuts.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So yeah, they. They find out, you know, Katie's, with a little assistance has basically been. Been doing like a three hour pull up underneath the car and he's spotted by somebody. He ends up dipping out. They go to the houseboat and he's spotted by somebody. Not nothing ever comes of that.

Steve

Yeah, that was a weird. I think it was just maybe a moment to show more tension. I Guess more tension. But also we're getting a sense of his. His lack of give a fuck, right where it's like, he's already here. He's doing this is done. He doesn't have to worry about someone tomorrow going to the cops and say, yeah, I saw this guy. He came out from underneath the car. They start investigating. Because he knows tonight it's going down. Like, he's going to kill this family tonight.

Nic

He has the full mindset of whatever happens is the last thing I ever do today. Exactly. It doesn't matter what happens.

Steve

He's about to fulfill his destiny. From his viewpoint.

Nic

He showers. He's got a lot of car dirt on him, and he slicks his hair back a billion times, which is really cool.

Steve

Oh, yeah.

Nic

Got to make sure you're looking slick. So Sam and family are out on the boat, and there's this really crazy weather event that I wouldn't expect on, like, such a calm river.

Steve

It's a river period. Like, it looks like the. The squall that starts up and the sort of, like, the way that the waves are, like, hitting over. I'm like, how is this on a river? What river is this? The Mississippi? Like, how big a river is this?

Nic

And it's like a tornado in the middle of the river to create that very wild.

Steve

It looked very like, oh, now we're on the ocean. Almost like. They only kept it on the river because it's called Cape Fear, so they needed that to work somehow. They couldn't use the ocean. I don't know. But, like, they're basically in. Eventually, this. This. This weather system that comes in over them is very, like, rocking away at sea, you know, tossed at sea so totally.

Nic

And in it, of course, you know, Katie is on the boat. We get Sam's, you know, checking out.

Steve

Making sure all the windows are shut.

Nic

Don't worry, I got my gun, you.

Steve

Know, Let me go check the.

Nic

The anchor. And Katie's out there. And he chokes Sam out, but not. He doesn't kill him, but he just puts him in the classic sleeper hold and, like, points his head into the window, going inside.

Steve

Katie comes in and basically, like, kind of, you know, threatens them, right? And then throwing Danny into the hold. So, like, the little, like, just to.

Nic

Go in the cupboard.

Steve

Going down in there. Stay in there. And he basically starts attacking Lee, you know, like he's gonna. Gonna rape her. And she is fighting him at first, but then kind of, I think also part of her is like, realizing, like, how much, you know, how much am I willing to, like, die and let my daughter die. Do I just let this happen? Like, what's going on? So then. But she's, like, getting sneaky, so she starts reaching for the gun because. Because he had shown them that he has Sam's gun. And she's doing a good job of just reaching back towards his back pocket to find that gun to try to get him.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

But of course, you know, he's too slick and too smart for that. And at the last moment, he realizes what she's doing and sort of breaks that attack to, like, you know, re. Regroup and sort of figure out how he wants to do this. And it's like, it really feels like this guy's trying to figure out how can I maximize the, like, pain. Yes. We're going to feel.

Nic

Right. Like, what order do I do this?

Steve

If I. If I attack the daughter in front of the mother, that hurts the mother more. I'm going to do that. You know, like, all this kind of stuff, and it's just all very creepy, very dark, obviously, and horrible. And this also, this whole sequence on the boat, especially the stuff with Juliette Lewis and Jessica Lange, it's like another note I wrote was just like, again, the acting in this movie is incredible. I mean, Nic Nolte's good too, but, like, really, De Niro and Louis and to some extent as well, Jessica Lange, they are fantastic in this scene. And they all really sell this terror, this horror that, you know, the. The menace, everything about it. And it's just something I want to mention as being really, really great.

Nic

It is.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Oh, yeah. And Jessica Lang, I mean, it's. It's like, heartbreaking what her character ends up trying to do. Basically realizing. Realizing that this is going to be directed at my daughter if I don't try to do. And she's kind of agreeing, hey, Max, I'll do whatever you want. I understand you. And all this stuff to try to draw attention away, similar to Goldblum waving a flare and running away from the T. Rex. Hey, come get me, dude.

Steve

Yeah. But while she was in the hold, luckily, Dani found something she might be able to use. She ends up finding a little thing of Roncinol, lighter fluid, and she ends up sticking it into her shorts.

Nic

Oh, before this. Sorry. Just to lead up to that. So when. When Katie comes into the boat, Danny tries to throw hot water in his face. There's, like, a boiling pot of water. She throws it in his face and he, like, doesn't even flinch.

Steve

Oh, yeah. And he, like, lights a road Flare.

Nic

Yeah. And so I think he's kind of talking about how, like he's unaffected by that. And he lights a road flare and the. Whatever the flare's spinning off. I don't know how those are all.

Steve

Made napalm or something.

Nic

It's running down the side of his hand. I mean, something that would absolutely destroy you. And he's just holding it, showing them, like, how resistant.

Steve

He does finally have to like throw it down and kind of shake it off. So it does get to him eventually, but it takes.

Nic

But he had a long time.

Steve

Yeah, exactly.

Nic

Yeah. So now, now, Dany, she had found this lighter fluid in the hold.

Steve

Yeah. And so he. So she. He pulls her out and it's basically like I'm doing you first, like, whatever. Now Nic Nolte's come back in. He's got all of them in there, I think, right. Right now. And he lights up his cigar because he's at this point, he's just waving the gun around, kind of like menacing them, whatever. But he lights his up cigar up. And she acts right away. Sprays that lighter fluid in his face, gets all over the cigar, all over his face. Burns the hell out of him. And he runs out of, you know, he drops the gun, I'm pretty sure runs out of the boat and jumps into the water to obviously put the fire on his face out. And they're all like, you know, okay, I think, are we away? But now, of course, this, this storm is rocking the boat so they can't.

Nic

Really control the boat to drive away or whatever anchor.

Steve

And they're trying to regain control of the boat, but it's like a nightmare to get anything to move at this point.

Nic

And the burnt Katie.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Is now back on the boat.

Steve

Right. He's climbed up with the gun, the cut anchor line. Yeah, yeah.

Nic

Katie. With his face burnt looking how he looks. He looks very similar to Freak show from Harold and Kumar.

Steve

Okay.

Nic

You know, the guy that ends up picking them up because of like a similar look.

Steve

I got very specifically the Tommy Lee Jones version of Two Face from Batman Robin as well.

Nic

Okay.

Steve

Forever. That one was. But yeah, yeah.

Nic

Really, really creepy looking. So he's again has the upper hand. And he forces Sam to admit basically that he had withheld that sexual history report that led to Katie, you know, potentially getting put in jail for 14 years.

Steve

Right.

Nic

The water is like really rough. There are certain scenes of the houseboat where I'm like, this is too small of a model to use. Like, you should have gone up a few scale points. Like, this doesn't really work.

Steve

I say the $35 million budget, I think, really all house happening here. It was really the houseboat and the destruction of this. Of this scene, of this set, you know, and everything. Yeah.

Nic

And. And then there's, like, the most aggressive whirlpool I've ever seen. That seems just determined to suck everything into the center of the earth.

Steve

Yeah, it's really crazy.

Nic

So, you know, we have a struggle here. And Sam ends up jumping on Cody during, you know, one of the lurches of the boat. And he handcuffs him to the railing of the boat.

Steve

Yeah. Yeah. Because Katie had already put the. The handcuff around the, like, railing thing he was going to handcuff. Sam never got around to it because the way the boat was rocking. And then Sam was able to put it, like, on his ankle.

Nic

Right.

Steve

It's, like, attached to his foot. And now it's attached to part of the boat. As the boat is, like, hitting this enormous rock. And, like, fully being just pulled. Torn apart.

Nic

Yeah, it's really like.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

I don't know if you've ever seen this art installation. Somebody made it where it's basically like a living room setup. But everything is tied to these cables with, like, a winch through a hole in the wall. And what the art thing does is, over the course of a month, it sucks everything through the hole in the wall. So, like, a couch and a TV and all this shit. So that's what the houseboat getting sucked into the ground was like. Katie's attached to it. Meanwhile, the women have jumped off. And we think they're at least as safe as you could be jumping into that water. But they're away from Katie.

Steve

Yeah. Say, obviously, pick the whirlpool over the psychotic rapist killer. But also. Yeah, definitely worried for those two. We do at one point see that they've both. Both sort of, you know, washed ashore, found each other. And so as far as we can tell, basically, Katie and Danny are okay. While Sam is still dealing with Max. Katie.

Nic

Right.

Steve

Like, you know, Katie and Matt and Sam are fighting. But, you know, Katie is attached to a part of the boat. So Sam starts, like, throwing rocks at him and whatever. And he gets a really huge boulder. Like he's going to crush his skull. But as he kind of slams it down, it's like the boat. The last piece of the boat, kind of gets pulled back into the river deeper in. So he. Katie, doesn't get his head smashed. But he is now kind of out in the middle of the. Of this raging river being pulled down and he starts speaking in tongues. Crazy. Yeah, I mean, Pentecostal.

Nic

Add anything else to it and I mean, he's able to. Just as this whirlpool is sucking everything around him down, he can still, like, lock eyes with Sam and just give him this terrifying look, like he's so determined to not. It's almost like the look is a. Of, yeah, I might die now, but I will never die. I'm never going to die. In your mind.

Steve

Yeah. You're going to be dreaming about me for the rest of your life.

Nic

Yeah. So speaking tongues. And he ends up getting sucked into the river, and that's the end of that. The girls are there, Sam is there, they meet each other, and they're all kind of recovering on the beach. And the film ends with a voiceover from the Juliet Lewis character, basically saying, we never spoke about what happened ever again.

Steve

Which is crazy. How do you not all go to therapy separately, end together to figure this all out?

Nic

But, yeah, so we got no epilogue. No. No sense that anything was okay after this, which I think is a great way to end it.

Steve

We have to assume Sam's been disbarred. He no longer has a law license, so who knows what he'll do for a living. We have no idea if Lee's.

Nic

You can't make a living off little sketches.

Steve

Yeah, right. I don't know exactly what her little sketches in them and stuff. So it's an interesting thing. This family has clearly been, you know, just not destroyed but. But wounded deeply by Max, Katie. And yeah, there's. There is elements of what has happened to these people that, you know, will never go away and never, never heal. And that's. It's really crazy. But that, That's. That's Keep fear and yeah, God damn, that's a good movie.

Nic

I really. And then talking to it, you know, like, we do a big variety on this podcast and sometimes it's like it's a movie because they thought of some funny ideas they wanted to slap on a screen. And sometimes it's just such like a well thought out and as executed film that it like the conversation, that the nature of the conversation can be different. You know, whatever we end up rating it. It's like this was made to be talked about on a deeper level than Happy Gilmore was, you know.

Steve

Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're right. Some of our episodes are very sort of of like plot analysis, and other ones are very much like, hey, remember this? This was funny. This was definitely more of like, let's take a look at the actual plot of this because it really, again, the acting in this movie is just off the charts good. It's fantastic. I actually did not know it was a remake coming in, so that's interesting. But it's a, it's a story that while it has some flaws, is not a perfect movie. It's a fantastically good movie. It is terrifying in all the best ways a movie should be terrifying, you know, especially for a non horror film. Right. This is definitely not a horror movie. It's a thrill thriller. But it is a, it is an exemplary, you know, kind of version of a thriller. It really is everything a thriller movie should be. And you know, I don't think it's at all out of bounds for me to make, you know, a lot of like Hitchcock comparisons. I think this was Scorsese putting on his Alfred Hitchcock mask and being like, let's see what I can do with this.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And it's a fantastic result.

Nic

Yeah. Yeah. I think we ready to rate this thing? I'll. I'll kick it off. Right. My choice. And yeah, you know, I'm glad I picked this. I'm glad that we watched it and, and talked about together. And as much as if I'm nitpicking at the movie, maybe it's 15 minutes too long. But I don't know exactly what I would even cut out because there's a lot of stuff that they have to get into. There weren't specific scenes that I feel like were really unnecessary. It's just like as a whole, 2 hours and 17 minutes is a little on the long side.

Steve

It is on the long side. But I think that the problem is if you were going to try to cut from the point where you're at now, what you're going do to cut is stuff that just ratcheted up the tension. Yeah. And that would end up being.

Nic

That makes it worse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it does get right into the action, which is great. So thinking about this as a very serious film in my head, I'm like, well, should I knock points off for these like super goofy ridiculous scenes that made me laugh? Like, why would I do that? That made me love the movie so much more. So yeah, I was really surprised at how good I think this movie is. I can't point at any other performances I would have changed or improved upon. Like the direction was great. Like there's. I'm sure there's a lot of homage in this movie that I don't recognize from not like knowing Older movies. Other than that shout out to Mrs. Doubtfire that I mentioned earlier. Sorry, film nerd here, but I'm going to go ahead and give this one a four and a half out of five. I really like this movie.

Steve

Nice. No, that's fantastic. I. Yeah, I. Look, I hadn't. Like I said, I hadn't seen this before. You know, I was familiar with. With. In a very loose way, with the general premise due to that Simpsons episode. But this was a really, really excellent watch. And the cast is so good, top to bottom, when you think about. You know, they're your main four, right? Jess, Robert De Niro, Nic Nolte, Jessica Lang, Julia Lewis. There's your main four. They're fantastic. But like the next four.

Nic

Fred Thompson, Joe Don Baker.

Steve

Joe Don Baker, the one who played Lori. Ileana Douglas, amazing. Gregory Peck. Like, everybody in this movie is fantastic at what they're doing. Really, really great. It's. It's Scorsese doing stuff that I don't really a tribute to Scorsese, but it's wonderful. I also have never seen Shutter island, which I believe is him. And it's another sort of, like, scary sort of more even. Maybe even more of a traditional horror movie that Scorsese did. So I probably need to go see that. But this was amazing. This was fantastic. I loved every minute of this. Even the parts I hated, I loved. Right. I mean, there were parts of this movie that were incredibly hard to watch, especially as a, you know, again, the father of a daughter and thinking about the way that horrible monster. People try to take advantage of young women and.

Nic

Really scary.

Steve

Yeah, really scary. But I am a 5 out of 5 on Cape Fear. All right, fantastic.

Nic

I like it.

Steve

So we are a nine and a half out of ten. If you haven't seen this movie, if, like me, this one somehow snuck past you over all these years, go watch this movie. But. But set aside a couple of hours, keep the lights turned on and. And just be ready. You know, Trigger warnings abound.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

But it definitely is a fantastic piece of cinema. Incredibly well crafted and every. In every aspect. And I could not more highly recommend a movie than I can recommend Cape Fear.

Nic

I am beaming right now that I recommended a five that Steve hadn't seen before. Like that. This is the best achievement of my month, I think.

Steve

I mean, I had never seen the River Wild, and I loved. I don't think I was a 5 on that, but I loved that movie. So. Yeah.

Nic

All right, Steve. Well, are we going to stay creepy or what do you have going for us next year, I think we're going.

Steve

To cleanse the palette a little bit. We're going to go a little different direction. You know, a couple weeks ago, we did a movie that you and I both love. We talked about Friday.

Nic

Yes.

Steve

In the talk of that movie, we talked about the awards that it didn't win. It was nominated for several MTV Movie Awards, one of which was best on screen duo for Ice Cube and Chris Tucker. Well, we're going to go ahead and watch the movie that won that. That award. We're going to watch Chris Farley and David Spade in Tommy Boy from All right. This was the movie that really, I think, more than anything else put Farley on the map as a movie star. Obviously, he was massively successful on SNL before this, David Spade had actually been in a couple of their movies more. But this was like, I think Farley's first big. This is a Chris Farley movie.

Nic

Yeah, for sure.

Steve

You know, kind of thing and really kind of breaks. And Brian Dennehy is great in this and Rob Lowe is great in this and Bo Derek is terrible and shitty in this. But, well, so, you know, it'll be a lot of fun to watch. But yeah. So that's what we're gonna. We're gonna do next week. We're gonna watch Tommy I.

Nic

All right. It's been a long time, but I've watched this a bunch, so I'm interested to see how it holds up. I can't wait.

Steve

It definitely is one of those that might not. Let's see how it goes. Yeah, that about wraps it up. So if you like what you hear, and we hope you do, please consider heading over to Apple or Spotify and leaving us a five star review. It really helps new folks find the show. If you want to drop us a line, share your thoughts on an episode, tell us what we got wrong, or suggest a movie we should do next, you can do so at the show@2dads1movie.com. That's the number two and the number one. You can also follow us on Instagram @2dads1movie. Once again, this has been Kate Fear and other episodes of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

Thank you so much for listening and we will catch you next week.

Nic

Thanks, everyone.