Transcript

Sam Girard (The Fugitive)

Listen up, ladies and gentlemen. Our fugitive has been on the run for 90 minutes. Average foot speed over uneven ground, barring injuries, four miles an hour. That gives us a radius of six miles. What I want out of each and every one of you is a hard target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, hen house, outhouse or doghouse in that area. Checkpoints go up to 15 miles. Your fugitive's name is Dr. Richard Kimball. Go get him.

Steve

It's 2 Dads 1 Movie. It's the podcast where two middle aged dads sit around and shoot the about the movies of the 80s and 90s. Here are your hosts, Steve Paulo and Nic Briana. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

And today we are talking about a movie that Nic so graciously picked for us last time we were together. We're going to watch The Fugitive from 1993 starring Harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Jones. Nic, why don't you tell us a little bit about maybe why you picked it or your history with it.

Nic

Yeah, I mean, this is one of those movies. It's almost a. It's like an archetype in our house. We enjoy it so much. A lot of times we'll say to each other we want to watch something that's like the Fugitive. There's a certain vibe about it that it's. It's a lot of action, it's exciting, it's well acted, it's well shot. There's nothing that's distracting that it's bad. And it's just like the pace of it is incredible. And it's one of those movies I think I've probably watched close to as much as anything I've ever watched. And especially we have friends that love it. It's just universally enjoyable. And I think after the Dowel got picked last time, it was, it was time to pick an actual good film here.

Steve

I do think us concentrating on, you know, good movies is probably a winning strategy. I'm not saying that's what we only have to do, but I like this. This is good. I feel like this is growth. Yeah, I, I too love this movie. And you're right, there's. There's something almost in, you know, kind of like indescribable but palpable about like just the tone and the feel and the vibe of this movie.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

That is hard to find elsewhere, I think. And this is one I'm pretty sure I saw in the theater. You know, we were, we were right about 13 when this came out, give or take. And yeah, I'm pretty sure this is one of my parents. This was a summer blockbuster. My folks were like, let's get the kids together and go to the see the movies. Go watch the new Harrison Ford movie.

Nic

So. And you know, importantly for our specific age where we were graduating high school in the late 90s, this movie was a perfect candidate for the discounted VHS for sale at Blockbuster. So if you were stacking tapes at home, this is definitely one that you wanted to have. You'd see it for 599 sometimes. So just rewatchable. And it just hits every time, no matter where you jump in too. Because this would be on tnt, USA and stuff like that. You could dip in anywhere, you know what's going on.

Steve

Yeah, it didn't take much to TV eyes. This movie at PG 13, you know, there's a handful of obviously scenes of violence, a couple of bad words. But like generally speaking, you know, this was movie. This was a movie that could be on primetime TV pretty easily with just a few edits. So you're right, it was. I also think this is one of those. And this is the kind of thing that, you know, us middle aged folks will understand, but the kids these days don't know the feeling of when you would walk into Blockbuster and the entire, you know, the entire new release wall was one movie.

Nic

Yeah, right.

Steve

And this I feel like was one of those movies for sure. Of 93. If you'd walked in, you know, this, that would have been. If not the whole wall, like half the wall is the Fugitive. Right? That, that picture of him where it looks like he's running on the L line or something, which isn't ever really in the movie.

Nic

I know they hammed it up a bit.

Steve

It's like the famous one sheet or something from the theater that they ended up putting on the VHS and dvd. DVD boxes.

Nic

And that would be the new release that's all covers with no tapes behind, of course.

Steve

Because you can't have people walking off with those. They cost like $150 or something back then.

Nic

That was crazy. Yeah, we'll get into that on, on a five part series.

Steve

That's right. Let's get into the movie Facts about the Fugitive. It is rated PG13. It was released on August 6, 1993. Like I said, big, big summer blockbuster. Running time of 130 minutes. I believe the longest movie we've covered so far.

Nic

Yeah, it's long for sure, but didn't feel like it.

Steve

Nope, Definitely didn't feel like it was as long as Pacific Heights.

Nic

I' Pacific Kites is actually still going on for you.

Steve

Okay. Directed by Andrew Davis, written by Jeb Stewart, David Toohy and Roy Huggins, obviously starring both Harrison Ford and the amazing Tommy Lee Jones. The score is no surprise. 96% on rotten tomatoes. About as fresh as you can get.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Huge critical success when it came out. A 7.8 on IMDb is astronomical. It's a very high score for that group. Awards, lots. It was nominated for a ton of. And it was including being nominated for the Oscar for Best Picture that year, which I had actually forgotten about. But it's great. And Tommy Lee Jones won two major awards this movie. He won Best Supporting Actor at both the Oscars and the Golden Globes that year.

Nic

So big, well deserved.

Steve

Yeah. Big hit for TLJ. Love that budget of $44 million, which is like fairly hefty for the time.

Nic

It was a big budget, especially with the names involved. Right.

Steve

You had to pay Harrison Ford and Tommy Jones a decent amount of money to do this movie. The special effects, the, you know, really, the practical effects, all of this amazing. So it was really incredible. And the people rewarded the filmmakers. The box office take was 184 million, give or take. That's an over four times its budget. So that is definitely the definition of a blockbuster hit. Yeah. No denying that. And I don't think anybody listening thinks the Fugitive wasn't a blockbuster hit.

Nic

No, I love seeing the rotten tomatoes of 96%. All right, I'm going to compare this here. I don't know if you remember the great stand up comedian from the 80s and 90s, Richard Jenny.

Steve

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Nic

So Richard Jenny had a joke where he said, I saw a survey that said that 96% of men masturbate. The other 4%, no arms. So I would like to say 96% of people love the Fugitive on Rotten tomatoes. The other 4%, one arm.

Steve

That. Yeah. I could see this being a bit of a. Of a catalyst of sort of issues for the prosthetic limb community. I hope that they didn't take it too seriously that the villain has a prosthetic arm.

Nic

Or maybe. I mean, it's a. It's a sign of progress.

Steve

Yeah. It's involvement in a major.

Nic

They never thought we were capable of major crimes. And now. Now here we are. We've arrived.

Steve

Exactly. All right, let's dive in. Yeah, I'd love to kick us off just talking about the opening because.

Nic

So good.

Steve

The opening of this movie is so clean. It sets the tone perfectly. It sets up the major plot line, obviously, that. That Richard Kimball's wife Helen has been attacked as being attacked. As we're watching the opening and there's basically no dialogue. I almost. I think for the first three or four minutes, no one says anything. You know, it's establishing shots of Chicago, of downtown Chicago. It's establishing shots of, you know, inside their apartment and the. The attack as it occurs. And then we kind of. The story takes us a step back just a few hours to kind of show us leading up how that evening went.

Nic

Right. Right. Them at the fundraiser and everything. And then it would flash to the house and it's showing the news reporters surrounding his house and Richard Kimball after he had just been delivered the news or just discovered his wife and the cops are there and everything. Yeah, it's great because it moves so quickly. There's no. No time needed to establish what their relationship was like or anything like that. They did it so effectively in these very few shots to get right into it. And that's one reason I love this movie, is there's no fat at the beginning. It is. He is the Fugitive within 10 minutes.

Steve

Basically, I would say. I mean, we'll get into it over the thing. There's no fat in this movie. No fat on the bones at all in this movie. This movie is paced so tightly, and for a movie that's over two hours long, it's hard to do. To do that. And there is just constant action, the plot moves. I was surprised on this rewatch because I've probably seen this movie like 20 times, maybe something like that, give or take on this rewatch. I was so struck by how quickly Tommy Lee Jones band of US Marshals is on him at every step and figuring out where he went and what he's doing. I was like, damn, I forgot that. They really don't let up for a moment. There is no resting right.

Nic

They're always close to him, on his.

Steve

Tail the whole time. In fact, it's even so much so that they really sell a redirect. We'll get to that later. But yeah, I just want to say one of the things I love about that opening sequence and establishing the Chicago ness of this movie. These two cops that are the main investigators for the Chicago PD are so Chicago. They could be the. In the. The Bart. Sw. Bill Swirsky. Super famous.

Nic

Exactly. Yeah.

Steve

In snl, they are so Chicago.

Nic

Yeah, they're perfect Chicago guys. And they're perfect kind of dick cops. And as somebody who's watched this movie a bunch of times. I'm obviously a big Richard Kimball fan. And I'm like, hey, you're being mean to Richard Kimball. But remembering at the beginning, these are guys who deal with murderers all the time and murderers all the time. And this guy is some ultra sociopath who doesn't even seem remorseful at what he just did in their mind, but they really push him around. They're very dismissive when they're asked. So the one arm guy, was it his left arm or his right arm? Like, those guys are so good. And I think they've appeared in several movies as similar roles. Like, they're kind of just plug in cops across Hollywood.

Steve

Absolutely. The movie in general, I. I think is the most Chicago movie that has nothing to do with John Hughes, I think, that I've ever seen. Like, there's definitely, like, all the Jean Hughes uber, like, has that Chicago ness. Right. Sherman, Illinois is in Chicago and. Or a suburb of Chicago and things like Ferris Bueller's Day off is a very Chicago movie, and there are others. But I really feel like this movie leans hard into the, like, Chicago ness of everything. To the point that we've got a St. Patrick's Day parade.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

You know, there's just all the. It's just very, very funny. I did see, or you're right, when they were talking to him and kind of doing the initial interview. And, you know, they're sitting there, I think, like, in his dining room or something. And I thought, you know, it was clear to. As an audience member. Oh, man, these guys think, you know, that he did it. And, like. And they're, you know, kind of grilling him that way. But it was clear that Richard, Dr. Kimmel, did not get that right away.

Nic

Right.

Steve

He was definitely just like, oh, you're gonna help me find her. You'll help me find this man, whatever, until. And it was. This was a. This is. God, Harrison Ford is just so good. This. This a moment of realization where all he had to do was look in a slightly different direction. When one of the cops said, oh, it's your wife's insured.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Who's beneficiary? I am the sole beneficiary. And when he said the sole benefit, like, yeah, Harrison Ford just tweaked his. His eyeline or something to a point. That made you go, did he figured it out? Like, they are. They're pinning it on him, you know, and it was just amazing. And it's just such a. Like I said, such a testament to.

Nic

Ford as An actor so good. And was this the first of bearded Harrison Ford in a major film?

Steve

I got a figure it was. Oh, wait, wait. What about.

Nic

He made a move. This is how unbearded he's been in his career. All right. He made a movie where he was undercover as an Amish guy.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And he didn't even grow a beard for that. So it was a real coup to. To get watch. Someone's going to. One of our listeners is going to write in and tell me that he was actually in 45 different movies where.

Steve

He had a beard. But again, up at the show@2dads1movie.com tell Nic how wrong he is.

Nic

Yeah, please. Absolutely. I need more of that in my life. Yeah. So Richard Kimball goes straight to trial, and the pace of it, once again, is incredible. It's just giving you the bits that you need. And he's. And he receives the death penalty. I don't know how much time lapses during this time. I mean, it's unimportant. But as someone who's watched the movie 100 times and needs things to think about, it seems like that's pretty quick for a death penalty. For a capital crime verdict.

Steve

I would say it's. It's. It's probably a couple months. And I think it's great that the movie doesn't care and doesn't. Doesn't make us care. Doesn't make. Doesn't go out of its way to say this is how much time has passed or give us any of the details of the trial other than the 911 call. Right. Obviously, that's the smoking gun. That's the thing that. That's going to put him away. And honestly, I mean, if you didn't. If we as the audience did not know from the opening that he did not do this, like, we know right away. First of all, the movie's called the Fugitive. We get it like he's running away from. So we know he's going to be convicted, but we also know from the opening that he did not kill his wife. This other person did. Right. Even then, I have to admit, like, boy, if I was on the jury and I hear the deceased saying, richard, he's trying to kill me. Richard, he's still in the house. He's trying. It's like, yeah, that. You're done, buddy.

Nic

Right.

Steve

That's it. I was a little miffed, though, at the judge. I think that he referred to him as Mr. Kimball. I think that's totally inappropriate.

Nic

Exactly.

Steve

Respect the man's doctorate.

Nic

Absolutely. That PhD doesn't get stripped from you when you're a fellow.

Steve

He probably has an MD because he's a vascular surgeon. But still, it should have been called.

Nic

Once again, no research, no facts for me ever. The whole scene. And he's convicted. And then we're getting on the prison bus and we're getting taken somewhere. Then the credits kick in again.

Steve

Yes, yes.

Nic

And I love that they took like a five minute break from the credits to do like the whirlwind court trial. And then now, okay, the plot's moving along. The credits are on. So you could still technically say from this movie before the credits are done, he's in the shit. He's already. He's already on the run.

Steve

There's no denot. No delay whatsoever. Again, just that there's. The pacing in this movie is. Is astronomically fast and yet I think gives you everything you need to enjoy it. There's never a point where I felt like, oh, wait, wait, wait, I didn't get that. Or. Or why are they doing that? It's not clear. It was always very clear. Everybody's motives are clear. Everybody's techniques and methods are clear. I think it's fantastic. I also feel like it was funny when I was first. When I was rewatching it again, I remembered because it had been probably five years, I think, since I seen this. And I remembered, obviously he makes changes to his appearance very early on, but I was noticing when it was him at the fundraiser in the tuxedo, the big beard. He has so much hair. I feel like he has more hair than Han Solo. Han Solo was a 70s fashion icon, and yet here he is with just this massive head of hair. And I thought, oh, that's going to be. Because he, like, shaves his head or cuts. No, he doesn't. He cuts the beard and then shaves the beard off. You got to do that.

Nic

He dyes it the closest color to what it already was. I mean, you got to bleach that shit, right?

Steve

We'll talk about his hair color because it changes a few times.

Nic

But.

Steve

But yeah, I also want to call out because we're just about there. So, like, with. So we're. We're on the prison bus. Let's talk about that.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So on the prison bus, he is clearly with a handful of really bad dudes, right? And he's going to death row. So it's like. He is.

Nic

Yeah, he's among them.

Steve

He's one of them, right? According to all the people in the justice system. So. But those Guys clearly have a plan. They know each other. You know, we're not given a heads up as to why or how they could possibly have, like, planned stuff or what the end result. Frankly, the worst part for me is.

Nic

Like, what was their best case scenario?

Steve

What was their best case scenario? Because the guards have a shotgun, they're able to sort of attack and kill, or at least really injure, not kill, really injure one guard, but the other one's got a shotgun and they all have leg and hand irons. So I know it worked out for a couple of them, sort of. But what was the plan, guys?

Nic

Yeah, it seemed. Seemed a little desperate. I mean, I guess this is our last crack before we get into the supermax, and what else are we going to do? But it didn't seem like there was a whole bunch of forethought. Maybe if you put as much forethought into this as you did your murder, then he wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Yeah, such a great scene. One of the prison guards, he's been in a bunch of stuff. I think his name was Tom Smakowski or something in Office Space.

Steve

Yes, the jump to conclusions.

Nic

Yes, the jump to conclusions. Matt guy, great seeing him in a serious role. And he really lays it on pretty thick as the. The tough prison guard who's, you know, has some shady shit about him. So, yeah, we're on the bus and one of the prisoners fakes some kind of a seizure.

Steve

Right?

Nic

Right. He's foaming at the mouth. And the prison guards come after him and chaos ensues. The bus crashes.

Steve

Right. Because the. The driver gets shot. So the bus tumbles off the road and ends up rolling down a hill, basically, and landing on train tracks. Yeah. And it's great. I love that they don't make it immediately clear that there's. That they're on train tracks.

Nic

It's sort of just so cool there.

Steve

And Kimball's alive, and, you know, both the prison guards are alive, but one of them's pretty really seriously injured. The other one just has like a laceration on his head. And one of the other prisoners is still life. Fine. So the prisoner obviously runs off on his own. Copeland, I believe his name is, runs off on his own. That's not a surprise. Then they start. So Kimball offers. He's like, let me help me with this man. This man, right. He wants to help the prison guard that's taken a stabbing to the sternum sort of, you know, off this. This bus and get him help. That's when they all notice the train coming and the, the, you know, Tom Sinkowski does not stay. Screw this. And I want to point out this is. This is 17 minutes into the movie. Okay. Very early. And it is a crystal clear textbook example of Save the Cat. We are having Richard Kimball risk his life to save a person who really was in a position of making his life terrible. Yeah. But it's the right thing to do. This is like we are hammering home the screenwriter and the directors and the actors are hammering home that Kimball is really, truly a very good person. Not only did he not do this crime, which we already, you know, pretty much believe that to be the case anyway, he's like a really good guy.

Nic

He's a. He's a Hippocratic oath enthusiast.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

He definitely has moments throughout this movie where he's being the good doctor, you know, laying healing hands on people as he's being pursued by the entirety of Illinois law enforcement.

Steve

Right. Yeah. It's the first time that he does something that it won't be the last, but it is. It's very early on and it's very clear that like, yeah, this is our hero.

Nic

He gets this prison guard off the bus right before it gets hit by the train. Awesome. Awesome scene. I mean, pre cgi. Like, they had to. There's just so much figuring out and just so much technical ability involved to get this to work so well.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And then. And then him running away from the train is a little, little wink to Indian of Jones. You know, I. I enjoyed that.

Steve

The boulder. Yeah. But the jump from the bus. From the bus window as the train hits is like one of those moments just absolutely seared in my brain. Yeah. As far as action sequences go. And I think it actually won an award for like best action sequence at one of the more minor film awards shows that year. Specifically that train crash sequence.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Won an award for best action sequence.

Nic

Because it's like two back to back great sequences. And you don't expect. Because as a. As a viewer of the movie, like we said, we're still in the fucking credits. And then we have this awesome bus crash, this takeover thing. Whoa. Hey, that. That's a lot. Thank you very much, makers of the film. I. I think that's. You've established this is going to be. Holy shit, is that a train? It's just. And that's. It sets the tone so well for this movie because this is the whole movie. Is that.

Steve

Oh, my God.

Nic

Oh, my God. Oh my God. So now we have a Kimball and he's helped up by the other prisoner, Copeland. Copeland. And. And they unlock each other. They go their separate ways.

Steve

Right.

Nic

So now there's an investigation at the side of the. Of the train derailment.

Steve

And we are introduced very quickly to the kind of second star of the movie, Tommy Lee Jones, playing Deputy U.S. marshal Sam Gerard. And I just want to say off the bat, like, I love Harrison Ford and Harrison Ford is great. Tommy Lee Jones steals this movie. Movie. He is fantastic from beginning to end. There's not a line he utters. There's not a look he gives that isn't calculated and perfect. Basically. I love Tommy Lee Jones in this movie.

Nic

Yeah. All of his interactions and his first one, especially if you're rewatching the movie, is extra funny because they first show up on the scene. So Tommy Lee Jones, Gerard, and the US Marshal show up on the scene. And of course, who's always in charge when the feds show up on the scene is the incompetent local police. You know, so who's in charge? The sheriff, who just wants to be on TV and end his workday at 5pm no matter what happens.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And he's very rude to Gerard. He's very rude to Tommy Lee Jones's character. And Tommy Lee Jones kind of has, oh, oh, okay, yeah, no problem. And sits there and is quiet for a minute. And then they discover, as the. The surviving security guard is telling his story, that everyone else is dead. Him. They discover the leg brace.

Steve

Empty leg irons.

Nic

Empty leg irons. And then Tommy Lee Jones gets to wave it in the face of the sheriff. Boy, there's some leg irons. Normally expect to see some legs in there. I know I'll forget later, so I have to bring this up throughout the movie. He just has those leg irons like a binky. Are you just allowed to hang on to evidence if it's your favorite thing? It seems like that should be in a Ziploc and in a banker's box.

Steve

I mean, that's fair. You're probably right. But Sam Gerard does not always follow the rules. No, he's a bit.

Nic

He plays by his own rules.

Steve

A bit of a loose cannon. And I think that it was. It was, you know, it was like a talisman. It's. It's guiding him, you know, through this investigation. And I think it's always there to remind him. Right. That Kimball has gotten away and it's his responsibility to get him back in those legends. In fact, I would argue he probably keeps them around, assuming that when he arrests Kimball, he will put him right.

Nic

Back into the exact same leg irons.

Steve

Yeah. And I think that's poetic and awesome and cool. Yeah. When he's bringing. He's holding the leg irons up and the prison guard, who we've decided is Thompson Koski from Office Space, because he is, but that's what we're going to call him, he says, oh, you know, everybody's dead or whatever. Oh, look, we got leg irons. No legs in them. How'd that happen? You know, he's like. And it's like. And the. The assistant to Gerard says something like, would you like to rephrase, you know, your statement, sir? And he goes, what? And Tommy Lee Jones goes, you want to change your bullshit story, sir? And I just love. Like, this is such a perfect delivery of, like, we know you're shitting with us.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Stop it. So good.

Nic

And. And it establishes him very early as someone who's kind of an equal in terms of craftiness and everything, as our protagonist. 100%, is that you're being chased by someone who's just as smart as you and can spot, you know, spot things just as easily as you can.

Steve

This is also one that I love, too. This is just. It's kind of an aside, but this is the kind of story that I'm always a huge fan of, where the primary antagonist in the story is not what you'd call the villain. Right. That there's. I don't even know if that's the right term. There's probably another term for, like, when you have a protagonist and antagonist, but then also this middle person who's, like, a problem for the protagonist, someone the protagonist either has to deal with or avoid or whatever, but they themselves are essentially a good person with really reasonable motivation. We're not trying to, like, do anything on Twitter, you know, the real villain in this movie. We'll get into it later, but is Dr. Nichols. So, you know, Sam Gerard is not the villain, but he is certainly an antagonist. And I love when there's that gray area. There's that character who, like, you kind of can't root for because you got this really good protagonist you're rooting for. You want to get away. You don't want him to get caught. You want him to figure out who killed his wife. But Gerard is just so likable, and he's just so good at what he does, and not in, like, really dumb movie ways where things fall into his lap and you go, well, how'd he figure that out? You know, very, like, Surface level, Sherlock Holmes shit where it's like, you know, oh, well, I saw the. This particular color of paint was on this toe. And that means. Yeah, like, none of that crap. Like, it's legit. Like, the discoveries that they make feel earned, you know, they feel honest and. Yeah, it's just a fantastic structure. I love story structure that way.

Nic

Yeah, he. He's awesome. And it's kind of like watching it, you're like, oh, this is what I wish all the police were like. You know, he has that character of whatever. And like you said, without being a bad guy, they could have very easily had a scene where it shows Gerard just putting three bullets in a guy that wasn't talking. Oh, I don't have time to wait for this boom, boom. Like one of those kind of things. And it is great that morally. Yeah, there's no beef with what he's doing or with what the other guys are doing because they're chasing down a convicted murderer. That their job and his. Well, we'll get into it later. So Kimball has escaped and he's running through the woods. We have a great speech now from Gerard, who's informing all the other law enforcement. We have a fugitive has been on the run for 90 minutes. Average land speed, four miles an hour. So good. I love him rattling that off. That's also a great example of. I'm not even going to double check because he said that so confidently.

Steve

No, that sounds about right.

Nic

I'm not pulling my calculator out. I feel like that's correct.

Steve

Walking speed, I've heard, is like around two miles an hour over, like, even ground. So if you're trying to hustle, but you're having to deal with hills and.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And loose ground and water and stuff, then yeah, probably about four miles an hour. Sounds about average to me. Sure. Yeah, it passes the sniff test at least.

Nic

It definitely. It definitely does. So he gets everyone going. And Richard Kimball, in the meantime, he's trying to. Trying to figure out, what am I going to do? Because he's still in his DOJ orange jumpsuit and he still has. I don't know if he. He doesn't have any leg irons or anything, but he's still in this thing with nothing underneath.

Steve

He's in the jumpsuit and he's injured. He's got an injury to his side from the bus crash that he has to deal with. And I think this is a place where it's like. If you're writing a story about something like this. Not that I know this Was a remake right. From a television series earlier, like the 60s or 70s. So I know that the character was always a doctor, but having this character be a doctor is super convenient in a lot of ways because he was able to, like. Like, you notice he not only, like, stitched up his own wound, but he, like, found the proper, like, I don't know if it was, like, an antibiotic or he injected himself with something, was clearly like, you know, and it's just so kind of, like, refreshing to be like, oh, cool. This is somebody that's like, we're not going have to worry about his wound festering. Like, he's got plenty of problems. We don't need to also be like. And it's becoming gangrenous. And now there's, like, this kind of gross subplot of, like, what's going to happen to that wound he can't deal with because he can't go to the hospital.

Nic

No. Like, you know, I am a huge fan generally of the concept of self surgery in a movie. I feel like anytime it shows up, it makes me happy. But most of the time, it is not a knowledgeable doctor who's injecting himself with antibiotics. It's Rambo putting a bunch of black gunpowder into a knife wound and lighting it on fire. You know, so this is probably the technically the best self surgery that I've seen.

Steve

Was that Rambo 3? Is that.

Nic

I think that's 3. Where it gets a little ridiculous. We'll get to that one in a few weeks.

Steve

Sure we will.

Nic

Yeah. So he shows up, and conveniently, there's a tow truck driver who's just ditched his coveralls, which are, you know, the exact perfect thing. And then he grabs a box and sneaks in with the manual laborers who are unloading stuff, and ends up giving himself a little haircut. But he sneaks into the hospital room of an elderly gentleman who seems almost dead.

Steve

Yeah, I'm not sure. Comatose or just very, very asleep. I mean, the nurse talks to him as if he's been drinking water and eating food. So I don't think he's like, he's definitely not dead, and he's probably not comatose, but he's just very deep in sleep, which is great because it gives Richard the opportunity to find clothes which, again, happened to fit him. I don't know if he lucked into that or if he was looking through different rooms. Oh, that's a woman. Oh, that's a little kid. Or that guy's way fatter than I am. Or something, whatever. He found somebody basically his size, but he was able to get, you know, some reasonable clothing. I did think, though, that the nurse was like, kind of ridiculously inobservant. Like when he kind of hides in the bathroom, he's sort of standing behind the door that's opened all the way and is therefore kind of covering him. But if she even glanced in that mirror to that side.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

There's no way she wouldn't have seen it. It was a very. To me, that was a little like. Not that it's enough to like, not enjoy the movie or something, but it was just like, really? That's like the least observant nurse.

Nic

Well, he also had. When she picked up the guy's like 68 ounce water cup and said, oh, you've been thirsty. Shaking it to indicate that it's empty, she goes in the bathroom and runs the tap for about three or four seconds. Maybe two hours maybe. Yeah. So I don't think she was probably. There's a whole sequel to this where it's just about that nurse's last day at work and how she doesn't care anymore.

Steve

Phone it in.

Nic

One other Richard Kimball thing, and this always sticks with me. I just really love him making the scrambled egg sandwich and just eating that guy's food really quick. It's just. It's so effective of just like, dude.

Steve

I got to get something good, protein, or I won't have any energy to do all of this investigation I have to do. Like, it's very responsible.

Nic

So. So he leaves the hospital.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And then he sees an ambulance. An ambulance is pulling in and out of the ambulance on the stretcher.

Steve

Yeah. So it's the other prison guard from the train crash, whatever. And he recognizes Kimball. So Kimble's able to like, kind of COVID his mouth with the little respirator or whatever to shut him up. But then mentions to the EMTs, you know, oh, tell him he's got a puncture, upper respiratory puncture or something like whatever he said.

Nic

And it's like how once again, he saved. So he saved that guy's life twice.

Steve

Yes, yes.

Nic

And then 10 seconds later, they. And Kimball gets in the ambulance and takes off, which is awesome. Just balls. I think he's also definitely flexing his upper class white privilege throughout this entire movie. I think a lot of it is about how, you know, if it was Richard Kimball who works at Jiffy Lube, he would have been dead immediately. But, you know, he's able to kind of figure this stuff out. Then the guard Snitches on him.

Steve

Right.

Nic

The guard reports that he swore he saw Kimball outside after he's knowingly saved his life twice.

Steve

But he's still a fugitive of convicted murderers. A fugitive. That guy's a prison guard, like, you know, I guess a cab man. Like cops gonna be cops?

Nic

No, for sure. I mean, he's, he's. He is what he thought we. What we thought he was.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

To quote the late, great Dennis Green, so. So he steals the ambulance and now we're really on the run. And he hasn't stopped being on the run. Yeah, he's taken off in the ambulance, and then Gerard and the. The u. S. Marshall crew are chasing him in the helicopter. Very exciting. Very awesome scene.

Steve

Yep. Yeah, it's the whole. So they. And they arrive at this dam, right? I remember the name of the dam, but it doesn't matter. The whole dam sequence, from the helicopter chasing the ambulance through to everything that happens for the next, like, five to 10 minutes, is like one of the most iconic sequences of the 90s of cinema in the 90s period. You know, the fact that they're coming at him. So the damn right. Is obviously part of. It's a tunnel. You drive through it, not over it. So you're like in a tunnel and they've got, you know, the helicopters on one side, the cops are on the other. So the marshals are coming from this side, the cops are coming from that side. He's got to figure out what the hell to do. So he gets out of the ambulance and he goes basically into the sewage system, into the dam system. And it results in one of my favorite moments that's super tiny, which is they all realize that. That. That manhole cover or whatever, you know, that little drain area is there. And one person, I don't know if it's Gerard or somebody else, like, kicks it with his foot to see how loose it is. And the fact that it comes right up, they immediately are just grabbing it, throwing away, get down there. And I love one of Joe. So we haven't even mentioned Joe Pantoliano. I love Joey Pan. And he's great in this. He's great in everything, but he's great in this. And he gets down there and it's obviously this sort of sewage situation. And he goes, it's all wet. And he goes, oh, shit, I just bought these shoes. It's like, of course he's worried about it. I mean, I get it. But like, oh, my God, he's.

Nic

He's such a good I mean, he also steals the. The scene whenever he's on. Joe Pantoliano is just the. The supporting parts in this movie are so effective. I. I really wouldn't have swapped a single one. But, yeah, he's fantastic. That scene really blew my mind the first time I saw it. So now we've got Kimball running through the drainage tunnel.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And we have the U.S. marshals after him.

Steve

Yeah. Which. Which leads us to one of the most iconic moments from the scene and from the movie and everything else where, you know, finally, Gerard is chasing Kimball, get separated from the rest of his team because Kimball sort of done some misdirection. And Gerard falls down the spillway and loses his gun. And so Kimball gets his gun and he kind of is pointing at her. I didn't kill my wife. And he says, I don't care.

Nic

You know, with no gun. I mean, just.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

The balls to do that and the integrity of that character sticking to, like, well, I don't need. I'm not gonna lie to someone to not get shot.

Steve

Right. Yeah.

Nic

It just makes you respect the Gerard.

Steve

Character so much, especially given what Gerard at that time knows about Kimball, which is next to nothing other than he's been convicted of killing his wife in the most brutal way possible. So to him, this is psychotic person who has, you know, escaped from custody and would likely kill him. But he chases him down. Kimball runs off because he doesn't actually want to kill Gerard. He doesn't have any interest in doing that. And so he goes down and, you know, this is one of those moments, you know, that lives in cinema history where Kimball's got two choices. He either puts his hands behind his back and goes with Gerard and back to prison and that's it. The story's over.

Nic

Yep.

Steve

Or he jumps off the dam down into the river below. I looked up a handful of things about this 162 foot drop.

Nic

Yikes.

Steve

Which is an astronomical amount. The Navy seals and other sort of diving rescue professionals who were on scene to like, help advise for this and obviously also provide some security and safety measures. But really were there to sort of advise the show, the movie makers on, like, how this would work, basically admitted to Ford, like, in reality, this is like a one in a. A million shot.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Nobody survives this. Between. If you even notice, he kind of hits the damn wall as he goes.

Nic

The physics of it. When he first jumps off, it almost looks like he's arcing back towards the wall immediately. And then it's the clear dummy just kind of falling. However, but also, who cares? Can't ruin. Is incredible. It was such a cool, unexpected ending because you didn't really know that there was a big damn waterfall attached to everything. You know, he's in the tunnel and stuff, but it wasn't so clear where that those tunnels went. So to step out to this, you know, off the edge of the earth, he jumps off the waterfall. A great Richard Kimball thing is that he found a big chunk of driftwood to hide in while he floated down the river. I really love that.

Steve

Yeah, very smart.

Nic

Nature's raft.

Steve

Probably too smart. Like, I mean, I know he's a doctor, but like, there. There are elements of this that it's like, man, I know lots of really intelligent people probably wouldn't think I'll be better off if I'm not just a bobbing head going down the river, but, like, let me get this wood and stay by, you know? That was very smart.

Nic

Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. And then, you know, of course, now Gerard is saying, oh, get this waterfall turned off. His demands are great. And. And the local cops say, come on, man, this guy's fish food. I got. I gotta get home for Wheel of Fortune. He's just trying to end his day once again.

Steve

Yeah. And Gerard responds, great. Find me the fish that ate him. So good. All right. So then we get a little bit of a side. An aside story we follow. There was a great misdirect. This. I mentioned this earlier, but. So there's Kimball's walking down the street, down the highway, not even. Doesn't have a thumb out or anything, but still gets picked up by a woman willing to pick up, apparently whoever is just walking down the highway, which is insane.

Nic

I wrote down that he was picked up by a hitchhiker. Solicitor.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. He wasn't even asking to be picked up. She's just like, hey, you want to ride? Like, I don't know if she thought he was a hooker or what, but, like, anyway, so he goes with this thing, and then we immediately cut to Gerard's team, and they're talking about, we found him. He's shacking up with a woman in this fairy whatever. And it's like. And they really kind of make you believe for a second. Oh, damn. Like that chick ratted him out or something. Right? And turns out when they get there, no, no, it's Copeland, the other escapee from the prison bus from the transfer. He tries to, you know, get his way out by taking one of the. One of Gerard's men hostage. But Gerard is very, very Shrewd. And is able to shoot Copeland without hitting his man in very close quarters. And that kind of ends the story of prisoner Copeland.

Nic

Yeah. And a great, great misdirect. And a really cool action scene. Yeah, I love the cops kind of playing their characters of we're supposed to be a couple of drunk homeless guys. One thing in this movie that recurs a few times, and I would love a two hour montage of this happening everywhere, is ripping the little flap that reveals the US Marshals sign. Yeah, Gerard does that earlier. He does that to the sheriff's. Yeah, so I just wrote rip and flaps down there. It's one of my favorites. Great Gerard moment right after. First of all, he kills Copeland, shuts down the threat. Copeland's lady is in the house. So after the initial silence of. We realize what happens. She starts screaming. And he just turns to her and points and says, shut up. It's just. He's just. There's no nonsense anywhere from this guy.

Steve

Nope, none at all. In fact, even his. His. His guy who he, you know, maybe he ruined his hearing with the gunshot. So close, is complaining to him and it's like, you know, man, I really wish you hadn't done that. Oh, you think I should have bargained? Yeah, I think you should have. And he goes, which ears hurt? Can you hear me out of this one? I don't bargain. And it's just like, perfect Jones delivery.

Nic

Really good.

Steve

So now we're gonna. So. So Copeland's gone. So we. That was the misdirect. Now we're off of that. And we get a scene where the Chicago PD is talking about getting Kimball. Actually, maybe. Did I jump ahead?

Nic

Oh. So first it shows Kimball and he's at a payphone.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

And he's making a call to his snitch lawyer. I don't actually. I know the lawyer's phones are tapped by the police, but he strikes me as a guy that would have turned him in anyway.

Steve

I agree. If Kimball had showed up to his office, he would have been like, yeah, stay right here. Do, do, do, do, do, do.

Nic

Like, no good. And he tells him he's in St. Louis. And then it cuts straight from the actual call to the cops, kind of reviewing the tape of this call from the tapped phone, which was an excellent scene of just kind of the teamwork in action. And it threw all the characters into it. And everyone had a little chance to contribute to it.

Steve

They're all picking things up out of the background noise and whatever until they realize, really. Because of the sound of an L train, an elevated train, which we. We have here in. In the Bay Area, our BART state. Our BART trains that are elevated, they are able to pick out, like, who's got, you know, how. Which cities have Ls. Oh, well, this one. This one. But St. Louis doesn't. So clearly he's lying about being in St. Louis. And that's when they even hear. I think it's like the announcement of what the next stop is.

Nic

Right?

Steve

And that's when they know, holy shit. Like, he's. He's like, down the street. I think even at that point, like, that call came from, like, you know, blocks away from where they're situated. And so now we've got CPD's back in the mix, right? So our favorite CPD investigators are back. The guys who talk like dish are getting ready to, you know, whatever. One thing I noticed in the scene, though. So there's a scene of like, a bunch of, like, you know, beat officers, whatever. You know, traffic high traffic cops, whoever. They are listening to the detectives about Kimball and what to look for. And they have these police sketches up on an easel next to the cop giving the speech about. About finding Kimball and offering a scotch to the guy.

Nic

Oh, right.

Steve

And the top two, first of all, I'm not sure why there are four, but there are. Two of them are bearded and two of them aren't. They all look like they were drawn by 4 year olds. Like, this. CPD needs to go back in time at this point and hire Joey Trotta to do the sketches because, like, this was ridiculous. This didn't look anything like Harrison Ford. It didn't look anything like anyone that's an actual human being. There were just like, pencil sketch, like, the most bare bones. I was shocked that, like, that's the police sketch they have of a guy they actually caught and convicted.

Nic

Right. They know exactly. How about a photo?

Steve

Right? Put a photo up of him. I guess they were trying to put the whole thing where it's like, well, he might not shaved his beard. So. Yeah, but to put the bearded photo up at least, and then be like, if he doesn't have a beard, it might look like, I don't know. It's just like Photoshop existed. It was 93. They could have done something.

Nic

Do you think that was a last minute props department failure? Where they're like, where are the sketches? Oh, we didn't get. I'm sorry. Someone else was supposed to. All right, we'll give 45 minutes to draw four pictures of roughly Harrison Ford with a beard and without a beard.

Steve

I think that is what happened. And in my head, Cannon, it was Tommy Lee Jones going, I got. I got time. Somebody give me a pencil.

Nic

And Kimball reconnected with his friend while he was on the run. And he ran into his friend Charles Nichols.

Steve

Charlie Chuck. Yep.

Nic

And this is another fellow doctor from the hospital. And he was able to get a little money from him. And then Richard had enough of a nest egg to rent kind of the weirdest rental space ever. Although, I mean, if you're in Chicago and it's a safe area, I mean, it's not a bad situation to be.

Steve

A little basement apartment. Nice Russian lady with her adult drug dealing son living there.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

I will say real quick about Dr. Nichols. Did you. Maybe I'm uneducated. I don't think I am. But it might be true. I found his accent inscrutable. I have no clue where he's supposed to be from.

Nic

I'm putting Dr. Nichols with the Skarsgard guy from Goodwill. Hunting is the accent where I'm like, so you're just doing it and then not doing it, huh? It's just kind of coming and going. Like, it's not enough of an accent to be part of the character.

Steve

Right.

Nic

But it's probably how the guy really talks. You know, it's a roughly. If you're calculating a French guy who's lived in the US for 25 years, that's about how he'd sign sound. But I had the same issue with his accent. And I think it was a bit. It was a bit of a distract sense. And I think that, that. That is a. Is a minor bone to pick with the movie. Yeah. Because I didn't quite. It wasn't enough of one.

Steve

Right. And it was almost like if an accent could somehow be generically European. Yes. That's what it was. It was like totally not Eastern European. You know, it's not like Polish. It's not French. It's not, you know, Greek. But I can't tell what it is.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Anyway. Yeah. So this is. So now we've got. The U.S. marshals are going through and invest, you know, kind of reinvestigating originals. They want to talk to all of Richard's friends. So they talk to Dr. Nichols. He admits right away, yep. Saw him today. And they're just like, whoa. You know, but it's like, you know, he. He has his own reasons to sort of play the game the way he plays it. I did love that. I had completely forgotten it. As we're doing these interviews with his colleagues, I'd forgotten completely that Jane lynch is in this movie. And I love Jane Lynch. Yeah, she popped up, by the way. Best hair she's ever had in a movie. Gorgeous, gorgeous.

Nic

Look good hair, look good.

Steve

But yeah, yeah.

Nic

And her line about they. They asked, has Richard come to you for help? She's like, no, but I would help him. And again, tell you, I think she's white privilege in this between Nichols and everyone, where the cops are coming to everyone. And they're like, well, sounds like you. You have an investigation to do, cop. I'm not doing shit.

Steve

I'm not gonna help you, asshole.

Nic

And she says, she said I would help him if he came to me, but I don't think he'd come to me. It's not his style. And my question to you is, longtime friends, work colleagues. Do you have a good grasp on what their style would be if they were on the run from the entirety of law enforcement after a murder conviction?

Steve

In my 20 something years of working in tech at 10 different companies over that time, I don't think I've ever known anybody enough to have any idea how they would be in, like, this level. Not even just specifically, like, oh, you've been convicted of murder that you didn't commit. But the level of stress that Kimball is under.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And what that does to people and how that changes their behavior. Like, I don't think anybody has any clue what he'd be doing, what his style would be. I mean, it was obviously like, again, it's Jane Lynch. I love her. She's fantastic. And I love that the character was being defiant in her statements. It was all really worked well. But, yeah, the reality is, like, really, you think you'd know how he'd react to being chased by U.S. marshals after leaving or after, you know, escaping from a prison transfer, from the conviction that he didn't, you know, of killing his wife, which he didn't do. Like, you know, like, what a weird scenario. Like, yeah, he.

Nic

So. So he's back. The cops are clearly very close to him, and Richard is back at his basement apartment right in this neighborhood. And he's just peacefully asleep with his, like, encyclopedia of limb prosthetics.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And wakes up the cops. He sees cop cars. He hears them. He hears them footsteps and everything. He's cooked.

Steve

Yep, he's.

Nic

He's done. There's no way out. He's looking for a way out. And then it turns out the cops are actually there to arrest the son of the landlady and his buddy for apparently being heroin dealers. It's implying when he was first getting the tour of the apartment, the mom was doing all the talking, which. And that guy just on looks alone and call me like, too American.

Steve

I would.

Nic

He has the face of someone who does not speak a word of English, Right?

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And then they bring him to the, to the police station and he sounds like Stavros Halki as he's like, hey, Daniel, what the. Yeah, he. He was. It was just too. Too much of a young American guy voice.

Steve

Well, it seems like. I mean, I think like in reality. Right. He was probably born in the US but his mom spoke only Russian in the house. Right. So he grows up knowing fluent Russian, but like, when he's hanging out with his buddies and the American. The American English he's hearing is all American and Midwest accents. I think that's what happened. Yeah, it was very funny. So. Yeah, but he's gotten ratted out. Then Kimball now. Right?

Nic

Like, so he's been ratted out. Oh, one, one. One thing I just wanted to bring up. So Kimball, he. He made a fake id, right? And he's trying to masquerade as a janitor to get into the database in the prosthetics unit of the hospital. And a character was in there whose job, I feel like, didn't match the character. So he goes in there and it's kind of late at night, and it's your typical kind of gum chewing, walkman wearing, ditzy seeming female that would appear in so many situations, you know, and normally it's the, the receptionist who's not answering the phone because her nail polish is drying or whatever. This one is doing extremely technical work on a very advanced prosthetic limb. So shout out to the filmmakers for giving like the ditzy girl a very difficult job. I thought she'd just be in some kind of data entry thing. And I looked and she was really like soldering circuits and. And stuff like that.

Steve

Definitely, Definitely a lab tech. Definitely doing that work. Like, for sure. Yeah. This is a point. I think we're about an hour into the movie, which is like, you know, we've been talking for so long, but that's.

Nic

This one warrants a little longer.

Steve

But I. This is when I realized over an hour in, I felt like the movie had just started. Like really, the pace is just so relentless and so good. So. Yeah, so now Kimball's gone through. In the hospital. He's able to get a list of people who have. Have prosthetics have right arm prosthetics of certain types. Because he's done the research, he's able to, you know, service in a certain amount of time or whatever it was. And he gets on to five names.

Nic

Which is fantastic because really good.

Steve

You can definitely call five numbers. That's not a big deal. And one of the people that is on the list has a rap sheet, as it turns out. And I laughed about it and wrote it down in my notes as I laughed about it. And only minutes later did the characters laugh about it. But he's was convicted of armed robbery. And I just thought it was hilarious that a guy with a prosthetic arm was. And then sure enough, like, One of the U.S. marshals guy was like, oh, armed robbery. Like, it's like, damn, dude.

Nic

It was good that they acknowledged that. It's a nice way to squeeze a little extra value into the script. So he's hanging around at the hospital a lot, still posing as a janitor. And he's asked during a specifically, like, kind of chaotic moment by the ER by one of the doctors played by.

Steve

Oh, that's Julianne Moore.

Nic

Julianne Moore. And I think it's her first or very early appearance by her because it's a pretty minor role. She asked him to take this boy down to whatever surgery room. And he realizes after talking with this kid and taking a look at the X ray that he needs to go somewhere else to be saved. So he does that. She sees him later, and she starts getting into him about, what did you do? You were supposed to take the kid here, and you took him here knowing that. That his life was right.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Richard Kimball, in his only not quick on his feet moment of the whole movie just kind of froze up. And I think what he should have said is, I don't know, some doctor took him from me.

Steve

Right. Yeah. It really would have been not too hard to like, he's like, yeah, hey, sorry. I looked at the thing. I was just curious. But when I got to the elevator, a doctor who saw me, you know, looking at it, looked at it himself and said, blah, blah, blah. Right. It wouldn't be that crazy to do, but, you know, it was. It was a missed opportunity. But what are you gonna do again? Tons of stress.

Nic

You know, she's got him, though, and she knows something's up. And she does one of my favorite Karen moves, which is just ripping someone's name badge off of them. So you'd here. So now. Now everyone's after him in the hospital. The marshals arrive at the hospital, and they're kind of realizing. They're like, why is he here?

Steve

Right.

Nic

And then they notice a guy with one arm who's walking away. Huge, Huge. Big, big. Props to the prop department here. They have the one armed guy who's currently not wearing a prosthetic on his left arm. So he has a right arm, and then he's missing his left arm, but he just kind of has, like, the partial arm there. And just to really emphasize that, he has, like, a newspaper rolled up in the classic style of, like, I'm gonna go take a dump, like, throw it under your arm. And I thought that that was great. But they realize, oh, he's here because of. He's doing research about guys with one arm. And that puts them right on his trail.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Because they end up with roughly the same list as he has.

Steve

Yep. No, absolutely. I think maybe with slightly different. I think they had more people, potentially. They couldn't narrow it down to five. His research got him a little extra help there. I think it's around this time, by the way, you mentioned earlier in the movie that he, you know, dyes his hair. And I feel like this is about the place where his hair changes color. And I'm not sure. Are we supposed to believe. Because first of all, we know not a lot of time has passed. Like, there's just no way like this. This movie takes place over the. You know, not. Not going all the way to the beginning, but from the escape to the end, I think, honestly, is maybe a week. It really is very fast. And yet his hair is either his natural color or it's kind of blondish. Like, it definitely, because he. When he dyes it, it's black. He dyes it black. And it's. It's. You know, he starts with brown hair and he dyes it black. But then at one point, he just. All of a sudden. I think it's when he shows up at the St. Patrick's Day parade. His hair is just lighter colored, and there's no explanation. I don't know if it's like. I don't know what happened there, but it certainly wasn't enough time for his hair to grow out. So either he washed out the dots and went back to his natural color, or it could have even been a little lighter. But it was a strange thing to have happen and not have mentioned or, like, have anything strange.

Nic

There's kind of an underlying plot of this movie of being the. The unreliability of claims made by pharmaceutical companies and that could have Been a comment on the Just For Men Corporation, how their product just doesn't hold up the way it should.

Steve

Just washed out after four shampoos. Yeah.

Nic

So he ends up in. In jail. One of the names on his list. Great name, by the way. Clive Driscoll. It's just, man, if you're writing a fake name, you hit that one out of the park. And he realizes that this. This is not the guy. This is a different guy, and he decides to take off. The US Marshals are also there, but I think for a different.

Steve

No, they're looking for the same guy. Okay. There was that. Clive Driscoll is the one who was convicted.

Nic

Oh, that's the armed robbery guy.

Steve

Right. Joker. So they are also there trying to find out if this guy knows Kimball.

Nic

Okay. And. And they're standing around, and for some reason, Gerard said, I, I don't want to wait around. I'm going to take the stairs.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And then Kimble's also taking the stairs on a stairwell that's on the opposite side of, you know, the. The floors. And they see each other. And this is a great pursuit scene. Just trying to outsmart him coming down the stairs. He feels like he's kind of dead to rights at the end as Gerard spots him. Brilliant for him to run up to a cop again. White priv, in effect, walks up to a cop and says, there's a man waving a gun around. He gets out just in time. The security doors are closing, and he squeezes through right as they're closing, gets shot at, you know, in the bulletproof glass a couple times. And he dips out right into the St. Patrick's Day.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

Great move by Richard Kimball here. I get to blend in. There's a green derby sitting right there in the trash can. I'm gonna pop that on my head and just stand in the. Everyone in the parade is doing something. There's these, you know, there's bagpipes and flag twirling and everything. And then there's just a cluster of general Irish people. I don't know, like, who he was marching with really, but he was just kind of generally, like, probably a union.

Steve

Right. Some labor union there, guys. Right. You know, there was a point, too, where in this parade where he's walking down the street and he's wearing a jacket. I think it's kind of greenish, I think. The jacket.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And underneath he has a blue sweatshirt.

Nic

And he takes the jacket off and it disappears.

Steve

Just disappear. Yeah, yeah. It's like, what wouldn't Gerard, like, find the jacket and then know to look for not a green jacket. I don't know. It's just like. That was one of the things I'm like, did they not explain that or did I miss it? I actually went back, like, skipped back a little bit to make sure. I didn't, like, see him walking off with it. Nope. He just must have dropped the. On the ground, I guess.

Nic

Yeah, I thought that too. And I was like, does he throw it in a trash can or something like that? No. One critique of the movie. So he gets the green derby to blend into the parade out of the trash can. I think in the scene before, as he's barely making it through the closing doors, in a nod to Indiana Jones, if he reached back through the doors before they closed to grab a green hat and then pops it on his head and joins the parade.

Steve

So I would.

Nic

I would like to do that.

Steve

That's interesting. It's interesting. Interesting take. But, yeah, at this point, too, I love. I love. This was the part where I really realized Gerard and his team are. Are trying to solve in some ways, the same puzzle that Kimball's trying to solve, but they're doing it for different reasons. They're just trying to stay one step ahead of him. So. But they get to the point where they realize what he's trying to figure out, and then they are trying to figure out the same thing, right? So now they're looking for the one armed man. They're talking to Dr. Nichols. They're interested in Sykes. Right. The person that. That Kimball actually has a great call. He goes to this one, one of the one armed men on his sheet, Right. He calls to make sure the guy's not home. He goes. He breaks into his apartment. He's looking around, and he sees pictures with this guy and Dr. Lentz from Chicago Memorial Hospital. So he's like, this is the guy.

Nic

Yep.

Steve

There is no way this isn't the guy. This is too big a coincidence. He calls Gerard and. Or, you know, whatever their. Their hotline, you know, to. To deal with this case. And basically. And. And I love. There's a comment from one of Gerard's people like, oh, we got another Kimball on line one. Oh, another crazy person. Okay. Like, whatever. And so, George. Yeah, this is Sam Gerard, you know, U.S. marshal, whatever. And he goes, remember what I told you in the dam? And he's like, oh, everybody. Like, this is it. Like, you know, he's like, spin it. Like, roll it. Roll it. Like, you know. And so they're chatting for A while. And I love that he leaves the phone off the hook. He wants to make sure they find this apartment. And he thinks about how they're going to trace this call. I'm going to make sure they get it, but I'm also going to jet. You know, I'm not going to be here when they. When they get here. And so then one another, one of sort of the. My favorite Tommy Lee Jones moments is after they. They go to psych's apartment, they find the pictures. They see like, Lentz has got Chicago Memorial on his shirt. And there. And they had already heard of Lentz through another way. And Nichols said he didn't know him. And then Gerard looks And he goes, Dr. Nichols lied to me. Go find him. It's so perfect. Like, his delivery is so dry and so perfect for the moment. But he's also. You could tell that just under the surface, he is simmering with rage. Like, this guy fucking lied to me.

Nic

He's probably the most mad at himself for not sniffing it out the way he has been able to with so many other people who are lying to him. At Sykes's apartment. It was just funny that as Richard's going through his stuff and he finds the arm drawer.

Steve

Is it with the backup? I guess.

Nic

Yeah. Get the backup arm there.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So now. Now Sykes has been activated.

Steve

So he's.

Nic

He's a little. He knows something's up. It shows him getting the mysterious phone call at his house. And in perfect bad guy fashion, he picks it up by saying, yeah, talk to me.

Steve

Yeah. Sykes is definitely. I mean, he's a good character. He's a good. It's a good villain, you know, but he's also like, so clearly in over his head. You know what I mean? Like, this. There's. This is obviously something going on bigger than him. You know, he was hired to. To do this hit, you know, I'm guessing based on the fact that he is a cop, but had, you know, was a cop and had to obviously retire earlier than intended because of being injured in the line of duty. I guess pensions in Chicago pd, like, aren't that good or something. So he needed the money. Like, that's all I can figure is, like, why else? He's not part of a criminal syndicate. Nor is Dr. Nichols. Why is he doing this other than, you know, I know he works for Devlin McGregor and security, but, like, this is obviously extracurricular. This is not. This is not an assignment from his manager.

Nic

Yeah, totally part of his job, per se. And he didn't seem to have a lifestyle that would be indicative of somebody who's making stacks of cash doing illicit hits for pharmaceuticals.

Steve

This was clearly like, a one off that he now has to clear up and make a twofer. Yeah. Yeah.

Nic

So Kimble is going. He talked to Nichols again.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And Nichols said, I'll get you the help that you need. At this point, still seems like Nichols is on Richard's side, even if he's lying to the cops. But he hasn't really done anything to betray Kimball at this point. And he goes to see Bones at the hospital, who's the dude that works there. And I love that he just says, hey, whatever happened to that thing with your wife? And that's another thing that kind of what you mentioned earlier about. It's good that we don't have to care how much time has passed since the murder, because if we knew, we would have an opinion one way or another about that line. Be like, what it was six months ago, man.

Steve

Bones is able to get him liver samples from this RDU90 program that. That Nichols and Lentz and. And Kimball were all involved in with. Yeah. So this drug is called ProBac. The Devlin McGregor pharmaceutical company is what links Nichols to Sykes and to Lentz and, you know, all this stuff. And so basically, he's able to see. He gets the samples from Bones, and he goes to see Jane lynch again. And they're able to look at them, and they see. And even I could tell. I love it. They show the, like, under the microscope thing, and I.

Nic

The cells look different, but it's kind of like.

Steve

But they look like that. That looks normal, as. Like, that just looks like healthy tissue. And sure enough, that's the whole point. Right. It clearly couldn't have been liver that had been damaged and then helped out by this drug that was supposed to do whatever it's supposed to do. It was clearly just clean liver. And they Even Jane lynch even tells him not only are they all from a healthy liver, they're all from the same liver. So obviously, some cadaver somewhere has been getting sliced up into these samples so that it can make it look like the drug does a better job than it does. Right. So that's basically where this is as. As. As Kimball talks to lynch with the samples. And as he. He finds Sykes and sees the connection between Sykes and Lentz. This is. No. We're now kind of recognizing what the overall plot was, why they were plotting against him, why he had to be framed for murder. You know, what the whole kind of point was? And I Love that they do that. With enough time left in the movie to still have a lot of interesting stuff happen. It's not like, oh, at the very end, like, boom, here's the story, you know, move on. And so we've got. Now, basically, Kimball knows he has to confront Nichols. Gerard is starting to wonder, I think at this point, he's starting to wonder whether or not Sykes is a bad guy. And he knows Nicholas has lied to him. He knows Sykes is involved and doesn't look like he's clean. There's a lot of stuff going on. And yet every interaction he's had with Dr. Kimball, Kimball has seemed like a pretty reasonable dude outside of actually escaping from prison.

Nic

You know what I mean?

Steve

He's seemed like a good person.

Nic

Yeah. And the cops now are kind of. They're after Kimball. They're after Sykes as well. They find out that the samples were approved the same day that Lance had died in a car accident.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

So this is a big piece of the puzzle. This. This makes it very fishy. The cops are looking for Kimball and for Sykes. Sykes is on the phone basically saying, I can't find this guy. And so, never mind, I got him.

Steve

He just happens to walk past.

Nic

Does that not remind you of every time your kid tells you they can't find something? So he's on the train, and Kimball is sitting there on the train across from a guy who's reading a newspaper with Kimball's face on the COVID A ridiculous looking guy, by the way. Yeah, this character was too much of a hey, what the fuck you want from me? Guy. And it seemed like the way he looked is a guy who would have directly confronted Richard Kimball. Instead of looking at the picture, looking at him, and then kind of slowly folding up the newspaper and walking to tell a copy in the next car.

Steve

Well, that's because he was only cosplaying as Andrew Dice Clay. He wasn't actually Andrew Dice Clay, but yeah. So now a traffic a, you know, whatever, Whatever. I don't know if he's a regular CPD or if it's more like a BART cop, you know, or whatever. He's a subway cop of some kind of guess.

Nic

Yep.

Steve

Transit cop. Right. He goes and he tries to confront Sykes and Kimball, hoping to arrest Kimball, basically. But he pulls a gun and points it and yells, you know, like a freeze. Whatever. Sykes just turns and blows him away. Yeah. I mean, there is not a moment's hesitation. This former cop, who doesn't know this guy from Adam, just turns around. Okay. Like wow. Okay.

Nic

Yeah, before that, when Kimball looks down. So the scene is Kimball looking into the. Like through the little window into the next train car. And he sees the guy telling the cop and kind of pointing towards him. And the cop looks, and he starts to go. And then Sykes, his head pops into the screen. And it's such an effective.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

Such an effective scene. Did you recognize who the train cop was?

Steve

No, I didn't.

Nic

Okay, so he was the guy who played. I don't know the actor's name. He played the. The weird janitor on Scrubs. And he was the dad in that TV show, the Middle.

Steve

Really?

Nic

Yeah, that guy.

Steve

Oh, my gosh.

Nic

That's. That's courtesy of my wife. So shout out to Jeannie for that one. Sykes shoots this cop dead.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

Kimball's fighting with Sykes. Good scene. And he ends up getting Sykes handcuffed to the. To a pole. And he's able to escape, but basically, he has two guns in his pocket that he drops into a mailbox, which I really love.

Steve

I love that it was the mailbox. Not a trash can. No, I love there was a mailbox.

Nic

And. And Kimball's onto the next step in his journey, even though Sykes might not be fully out of commission, but Kimball is going to where Nichols is speaking, because Dr. Nichols is delivering a keynote speech at some kind of pharmaceutical convention where he's basically going to be, I don't know, pumping up or revealing some new breakthrough with this drug that he's discovered to have been really a Not effective. Something that's falsified its research to get to the status it is right now.

Steve

Yeah, it's basically like. So you're just skipping back real quickly at the very beginning. The reason that Mrs. Kimball is home alone that night is because Richard has to answer a call and go into an emergency surgery to. To assist with a surgery that's happening. He's a vascular surgeon, and there is a patient on the table who's bleeding way more than they think he should. Like, it's. It's a very, like, you know, whatever kind of situation. And he talks about the liver being enlarged and all this stuff, and how he. This was a patient in the RDU90 program, which apparently was the, you know, sort of testing program for Pro Vasic, the drug that. That is behind all this, basically. And so clearly, it is a drug that, while it might do some of the things it claims to do, it has serious bad side effects that are being covered up by Nichols. And so that's why, you know, he. Well, he. That's why the drug is why Nichols is speaking. But to confront Nichols, the reason Kimball's there is because he knows he'll be there to speak and he can confront him. And he does. And he does it in the ballroom, like, during the speech.

Nic

Yep.

Steve

You know, just brings it right at him. And it's just. And it was. I thought this whole sequence was funny because first of all, there's a spotlight on Nichols when he's talking on stage. Stage, like on the day, sort of. And as Kimball comes in and starts talking to him and accusing him of, like, you switch the samples or whatever. Yeah. The spotlight, or a second one maybe follows Kimball. And it's like they're both. And it was. For me, I'm like, God, this really feels like a pro wrestling, like, pre match. Like, you know, backstage or John each other. I'm expecting mean Gene Oakland to be in the middle of it. Just, you know, like, oh, what do you think? You know, it's like. But, yeah, so they do this so that Nichols is like, all right, well, let's, you know, like, Richard, let's go talk about it. Or whatever his accent is. We'll go talk about it. And they go off to the side. And then, sure enough, in pro wrestling fashion, the first attack, the first move in this new fight that's about to begin is Nichols just slamming a chair, breaking back so hard.

Nic

And before that, even. So, Nichols pulls Richard aside, and everyone kind of recognizes that it's Richard Kimball and sitting there doing nothing and just kind of being like, oh, boy. And he's saying all this stuff. And so that in itself is crazy. And they kind of reacted a slow, like, gasp, you know, across the crowd. And then Nichols pulls Richard aside, and he goes to kind of put his arm on his shoulder, and Kimbal just swipes it away. And the whole place is like, just.

Steve

This absolute shocked gasp.

Nic

It was in the wrestling. I thought they'd start the. Holy shit. Holy shit. Yeah. And Nichols comes in and he busts the chair over. Over Kimball. They. They go on to the next part of their fight later on when Gerard comes through that area to see what had happened. There's just chair particles all over the place.

Steve

Like, it really exploded.

Nic

They had garbage chairs. Maybe they should focus less on. On wonder drugs and focus more on seating.

Steve

Oh, it's a real. It's a real assault on the Chicago Hilton. The chairs were that bad.

Nic

So. So the subway cop was killed. And the word on the street is that Kimball is the guy who did it. So the Chicago PD cannot be reasoned with at this point. Even though Gerard feels like we have a pretty good sense that this guy is being truthful, he did not kill his wife. Chicago PD is like, we don't care. He killed one of us and he's going down. And so they're competing with that. So basically the guy who's been pursuing him the entire movie is the one who could save him. But. But now we have this other force, which is the misinformed Chicago police, who feels that he just killed one of them. And they're showing no mercy. They've had enough of this fucking guy.

Steve

Yeah, yeah. So they make the call out, take them down, whatever. They send a helicopter. They find out that basically Nichols and Kimball end up on the roof. Classic, classic action scenes, right Place end up on the roof. CPD sends up a helicopter and they give the go ahead. It's like if you get a shot, you take it. Like, they're basically telling them, take it out, take them out. And Gerard in the meantime is like, I'm here too. Yeah. I don't want to get shot. Like, tell him to knock it off. Right? So battle, battle, battle. At some point on the roof is when I realized, I think Nichols takes a real bad spill down a significant number of stairs. And then thinking back to the very beginning of the movie when both Kimball and Sykes tumble down, I'm like, too many people fall downstairs without any repercussions. Like, falling downstairs is like one of the most damaging things you can do to yourself because every angle is just. Just so random. And who knows how your neck's going to go? Nope. Everybody in this movie can fall down, like multiple flights of metal stairs and just get up and walk off. No big deal.

Nic

Very strange, the superhuman strength. It was very much the. The liquid metal terminator fighting the T800 kind of fight, going through stuff, crashing through glass. But not right away. So it was nice to have a little tension. There isn't going to break. And then they crash through and they end up on top of an elevator, right? Which then Nichols emergency stops and gets out on the perfect floor for a final fight scene. This industrial laundry room of this hotel, which just has giant heavy bags of laundry and ceiling hooks and girders and all kinds of useful shit around for a scene like this.

Steve

It was so funny. It really made me think about. Or it seemed very much like. Although it was different in many ways, the kind of opening action sequence of the movie. Face off, off with John Travolt and Nic and Nicholas Cage. They end up in, like, A test. Like an aviation test hangar.

Nic

That's right.

Steve

And there's like steam going everywhere and there's all this. And it's just like there's. Yeah, there's different things. The devs were earlier. But yeah, that movie is so good too. But. Yeah, but it felt very similar where it's like, things are very dark. There's a lot of things that move. There's a lot of things that can distract you. There's a lot of places to hide, there's some high ground, there's some low ground. Like, it's a really interesting place to put it. And it actually, because of that, that the nature of the room or the floor they're on, whatever the area they're in, is one of my favorite slow moving action moments ever, which is Nichols sneaking up behind Joey Pants and slowly, like, gliding the I beam towards it. And Pantoliano just turns around at the wrong second and just takes it straight in the face. And it's like, you know, that I beam must have weighed many, many hundreds of pounds. Like, I can't imagine. I don't know what a steel I beam actually weighs, but to take that to the dome. Yeah, he's lucky. He only got, like, hurt and not murdered, like, killed by it.

Nic

What a. What a great improvised weapon that was.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And. Yeah, so. And that Joey Pants, we didn't mention this earlier. His character's name is Cosmo, which is really funny Pre. Pre. Kramer reveal, I believe. So this was a. This was an early Cosmo.

Steve

I think that's got to be true because that would have been a later season moment in Seinfeld.

Nic

Yeah. So Nichols is there and then Gerard is there, but Kimball can't really. He doesn't want to announce his position because Nichols is after. So he ends up at the last minute, Nichols is about to shoot at Gerard. Kimball hits him with a pipe. Save life number three.

Steve

Right.

Nic

At least in the movie. And I would say, really the fourth life saving because he saved the security guard or the prison guard. Prison guard.

Steve

Twice.

Nic

Twice.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So he ends up saving Gerard's life. And Gerard lets him know, I believe, you know, he's telling him during this seat. We know about RDU 90. We know about this Sykes. Yeah. Really, really good. So he goes into. He's into custody. And I don't know if. I don't think. I think the Chicago PD still feels that this is a cop killer because they seem pissed when he's walking them out in handcuffs. They're like. Like, we agreed that he was not going to be handcuffed.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And he gets him into the car. And I like that Gerard says, let me see those hands, Doctor. And he gives them. He gives them. So like you said earlier, he didn't say doctor. Maybe he's, he's finally given him the respect he deserves.

Steve

I think it was, I think if not a deliberate callback, it was a convenient sort of reference to, I think, the judge calling him Mr. Kimball when he sentenced him. Right. Now that he's. Now that, you know, he's Dr. Kimball, now that they. Now that there's enough sort of evidence and understanding that he is not the person who killed his wife, there's more respect for him. This does bring me to my sort of like, final, like, question mark. I think about the movie, which is, is he still going to do time? Because he, he was obviously, he's not going to be on the death row. He's not going to. But he still escaped custody. He still committed lots of little small crimes, theft and other things along. Like, how much, like, is he going to be in any trouble? You know what I mean? Like, I wonder about that.

Nic

I. So I think that because he didn't initiate his own escape. Okay, but yeah, so then it's like, all right, well, you, you ran away from the cops. Yeah, that's a crime. But you were also. He should say, okay, give me time served for that part of it and erase what I did for the, for the murder. But yeah, that's an interesting point. And the good thing is that the movie does not allow us to ponder any of this. There's not another 20 minutes where he ends up getting married to Julianne Moore's character and has a little half redhead, half dyed black hair kid running around. It's just, well, that sure was the Fugitive. And then that's it. Like, it's just, again, not an ounce of fat on the film. Such a great ending. So satisfying. And yeah, I love this one. I really, really love this movie.

Steve

Well, let's talk. Let's talk ratings. Let's talk final thoughts about the Fugitive. This was your pick. Let you go first.

Nic

Obviously, huge fan. You know, I didn't look this up because of my no research policy, but this was based on that TV show from the 50s or 60s. One beef with this movie, if I were writing it today. Kimball is spelled K A, K I, M, B L, E. I think K I, M B E L, L is a stronger name for a lead character. A stronger last name, spelling for a lead character. And that's how much I love this movie is. I have to pick about that shit. This movie is incredible. It's rewatchable. Every time I watch it, I don't feel like, okay, now I'm good for another five years. I feel like, oh man, that was great. What an experience. Just Harrison Ford at his peak of fully leading a movie while not playing such a made up character. I mean, yeah, Indiana Jones, it was. Took place in a different time, but you know, there's a little bit more of a cartoonishness to that, that concept.

Steve

Sure.

Nic

And, and this was just such a real thing. It was made 30 years ago and does not feel dated at all. There's nothing that dates this movie. So I feel like it's gonna hold up because there's no specifics to the era. Really.

Steve

Yeah, they're not doing anything with like technology that now seems super obsolete. Right. They're talking about wiretaps. They're still tracking people through this and people are snitching. A lot of that is still how this stuff happens.

Nic

Yeah, absolutely. So it wasn't a Enemy of the State type thing where Johnny Mnemonic. So yeah, great movie. I think this is a top five all time movie for me and I'm going to give it my first five because I don't see how I can ding this one. I just love it. So, yeah, big props to the Fugitive. One other thing, the director of this film, the two movies that he made previous to this were above the Law starring Steven Seagal.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And then Under Siege starring Steven Seagal.

Steve

What an upgrade in the lead light.

Nic

For him to get to work. And he, he at least got the Tommy Lee Jones continuity with Under Siege.

Steve

Right.

Nic

But man, what an upgrade to Harrison Ford. Great movie. I'm giving it a five. What'd you think, Steve?

Steve

So for me, like, I think there are a handful of movies that exist that I really believe wholeheartedly are perfect. Just off the top of my head, I mean, like when I think about it, like the Princess Bride is a perfect movie. You know, Back to the Future is a perfect movie in my opinion. Opinion, this is a perfect movie. Now obviously it's not like there aren't anything, you know, it's not that there's nothing you could look at and go, ah, that was a little weird. But in like reality, like this is as close to perfection as human endeavor, creative endeavor gets, in my opinion. There is not a moment wasted. There is not a character miscast. There is not an action scene that leaves us wanting more. It is, it leaves everything out on the field, it is a perfect movie. It is an easy five out of five. There's no reason I would not give this a five. So, yeah, I think 10 out of 10 from you and I. And I stand by that every single day. I will stand by the fugitive being a 10 out of 10 movie.

Nic

Yeah. And if you want to disagree with us, you can email us at fight usodads1movie.com and pick a. Pick a spot.

Steve

Come at us. All right, well, cool. That was the Fugitive.

Nic

So. So that was my pick. And. And Steve, you're. You're picking next for us. What do we have to look forward to next week?

Steve

Okay, so this is interesting. So so far, the movies we've seen have all either been like, ensemble typecasts, where, you know, you're looking at, like, singles, you're looking at toy soldiers, you're looking at Spaceballs, where it's like a bunch of different people doing their thing. There's a couple where, you know, there have been, like, this movie had, like, multiple kind of real leads, Right. You had Harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Jones, and then there were Specific Heights where Michael Keaton was about half of a. Half of a lead, and the other two, who cares? But this next movie is truly like a one lead, one man lead vehicle.

Nic

Okay.

Steve

It is a movie based entirely on, you know, it works based entirely on the, like, charisma of its lead actor. So we are going to go back to 1992, and once we get there, we're going to go back again to about the year 1300 A.D. okay. We are going to join Ash Williams, as played by Bruce Campbell, in his battle against the army of Darkness. Yes.

Nic

All right. I haven't. I don't think I've watched this in about 15, 20 years. Oh, my gosh. It was something in high school that. This was a VHS that we definitely had and I watched a bunch of times. I'm really excited to watch this one again. It's been a while.

Steve

It's. It's probably been just a couple years for me, I think. I think through the course of college in particular, I think this was like a monthly viewing for me. Yeah, really? Probably, yeah. I've probably seen it 40 or 40, 50 times. It's fantastic. I. It has been a few years. I think it's probably been seven or eight years for me since I've seen it. So I'm very much looking forward to it. But, yeah, that. That is what we're going to do next. We're going to do army of Darkness. From 1992 starring Bruce Campbell.

Nic

Can't wait.

Steve

It's gonna be a lot of fun. Real quick, everybody listening. If you like what you hear, go on to Spotify, go on to Apple Podcasts. Throw us a five star review if you so think that's that's what we're worth. I think it's what we're worth.

Nic

I think we're the fugitive of movie podcasts.

Steve

It helps people find the show. So please do that. Follow us on Spotify, follow us on Apple. And if you do want to send an email, the actual email address we were being silly earlier is the show@2dads1movie.com. That's the number two and the number one. So yeah. Thank you all so much for listening to another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

I'm Nic.

Steve

And we'll be back next time with army of Darkness.

Nic

Thanks, everyone.

Steve

Take care of Sam.