Transcript

Intro Clip

Mist! Turn that motherfucking shit down! Nigga, what the fuck you want from me? Nigga, you know what the fuck I want, nigga. I want your motherfucking Dayton's and your motherfucking stereo. And I'll take a double burger with cheese. What?! Motherfucker, order my motherfucking food! Hi, may I take your order please? Uh, let me have a double burger, uh, some fries—. What the fuck I said with cheese, nigga? Shit. Hey yo, uh, make that a double burger with cheese. See, y'all made me shoot your stupid ass over nothing. Hey, come on, man. We supposed to be brothers. Oh, what? You trying to get smart? Nigga, are you trying to kick some knowledge? Nigga, fuck that, nigga. Give me your motherfucking jewelry, nigga. Take that shit off. Oh, you got a pager too? You're ballin', huh? You're ballin'? This motherfucking shit. Better me than the motherfucking cops, nigga.

Steve

It's 2 Dads 1 Movie. It's the podcast where two middle-aged dads sit around and shoot the shit about the movies of the '80s and '90s. Here are your hosts, Steve Paulo and Nic Briana. Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

Today we are moving to 1993 in the, uh, 2 Dads 2 Decades march through the '80s and '90s. We cleared the '80s a while ago, but now it's 1993. And today we are watching the Hughes Brothers, uh, urban classic Menace II Society. And Nic, you brought this one to the table. I actually hadn't seen it before, but tell me a little bit about why you brought Menace II Society Society to us today.

Nic

Yeah. Uh, so this was, you know, part of this kind of wave in the early '90s of these, like, for lack of a better term, they'd be referred to as these like hood movies or whatever, right? So we got our Boyz II Men and New Jack City.

Steve

And I think you mean Boyz n the Hood. Huh? Yeah. Jesus. Fuck.

Nic

Shit. Fuck.

Steve

Motown Philly.

Nic

You know, I was looking right at the number 2. There you go.

Steve

Yeah. I can see that. Um, leaving that in, by the way, I'm not cutting that out. Yeah. No.

Nic

So back to Bell Biv DeVoe: The Movie. Um, Yeah, so we had these different movies and colors and, uh, I mean, there were different levels of them. There was some real low-budget dog shit, like, can we shoehorn a rapper into a role and like try to get something from that? And then there were some really like thoughtful, artistically done movies, uh, done during this time. And I was obsessed, like in high school I was obsessed with this kind of culture. I love rap music. Me and some of my friends had like a rap group and everything, and like this was right up my alley. So I caught this, I think, in high school and ended up watching it a bunch on repeat in college. Certain things like the characters really— it's one of those movies, it's a very serious movie, it's a very kind of bleak movie, but watching it a ton, the characters become funny to me. So it's like their lines that they say would start to crack us up, and when I'm watching it, I'm like, oh yeah, this is what we would say in this situation. That is not a goofy or whimsical moment at all in this movie. Um, but I think it is like, as a, uh, snapshot of the time and Boyz n the Hood, or, you know, by its original title, Boyz II Men, is definitely the one that people would bring up if they're talking about one movie of this era. And this is one that I feel like was up there and covered some things that Boyz n the Hood didn't. And I thought maybe this would be a fun one to chit-chat about. And I can't believe you haven't seen it. So yeah, it'd be interesting to hear what you think first time.

Steve

Fun is an interesting word to use. Nothing about this movie is fun. Yeah. My familiarity with this sort of genre of film from that era First of all, you and I were very different people, I think, in high school. I was in theater and I listened basically exclusively to industrial music and dated a girl who painted her fingernails black. So like, you know, the hip-hop world was a little outside my purview, outside of like Snoop Dogg and Dre and like stuff that everybody knew, you know what I mean? So this one slipped by me for that reason, I think. I think it was in college I finally got around to watching like "Boyz n the Hood," "Higher Learning," "Colors," and a few others. So I'm definitely familiar with like the grouping of movies, but you know, in my mind it's always like kind of like "Boyz n the Hood" was like, sort of the artistic achievement of the category. And I didn't really think very too much of the other. So it was interesting to jump into this and get a like a pretty different feel to it because I do think that Boyz n the Hood, while also bleak and tragic and many things like, has more moments of levity. And this movie kind of doesn't. I mean, there are, there are, there are a few things, right, that happen that are a little bit funny. But man, it is, it is dark. And then the more interesting thing and more interesting and interesting thing for me about this was that I'd seen several of the kind of adjacent films. And of course I had seen the Wayans brothers' Don't Be a Menace II Society or Drinking Your Juice in the Hood. And there's so many—.

Nic

It's a great companion to that.

Steve

I mean, clearly there were parts of this movie that I saw this. It felt a little bit like when, you know, we have watched something earlier and I hadn't seen— Oh, I hadn't seen Cape Fear, but I'd seen the Simpsons episode that spoofs Cape Fear. So there were these elements where I went, oh shit, okay, that's what— that's the literal moment they're referencing in Don't Be a Menace. Okay, cool.

Nic

And in the culture, like there's parts of this movie that are referenced directly in a a lot of hip-hop songs too, like over the years and stuff. So yeah, it has like seeped in. Like, this is a very important movie, um, to that culture for sure.

Steve

Definitely. All right, well, let's dive into the facts on Menace II Society. Before we do, I just wanted to say real quick, Nick, congratulations, this is our 60th episode. Just want to call that out real quick. Episode 60. So that's cool. Um, but on the movie, Menace II Society came out on May 26th, 1993 with an R rating and a running time of 97 minutes, directed by the Hughes brothers, Alan and Albert Hughes. Written by Albert Hughes, Alan Hughes, and Tiger Williams. Starring Tyran Turner, Lorenz Tate, and Jada Pinkett. Scores on Rotten Tomatoes, 84%, very high score. IMDb, a 7.5, that is very solid. And 2 thumbs up from Siskel and Ebert. It won the best movie of the year at the 1994 MTV Movie Awards. Wow. Couldn't find anything else real, real kind of high level, but that is actually quite the honor. The MTV Movie Awards were like a legit, kind of more of a People's Choice kind of adjacent thing. Not necessarily the Oscars, Golden Globes, but it was like a legitimate thing to win.

Nic

For sure. Yeah.

Steve

Uh, on a $3.5 million budget, which is like so interesting. Uh, the last couple of weeks, we— the last several weeks, we've been in the like $20 to $40 million range of a lot of these movies. And you'd think, oh, as we're going through time, you know, those numbers are only going to go up and up. But this being a $3.5 million picture, it looks great, it sounds great, the acting's great, you know, but they were able to do a lot with that amount of money. And it made $27.9 million at the box office. Doesn't necessarily sound like a huge amount on its face, but that's 8 times what it costs. So it's definitely, uh, by all, uh, measures, that is a hit movie for sure from both the critical and, uh, uh, commercial means. I don't know what I'm trying to say. It did well. That's what I'm trying to say. All right, let's go ahead and begin our conversation on Menace II Society. And Nick, why don't you kick us off? How do we start?

Nic

Uh, so we got a cold open to this film, uh, and we're started with just a black screen. We get some audio, and it's, uh, the two kind of main characters of the film, Kane and O-Dog. Yes, who are, uh, on their way into a liquor store. Kane is played by Tyron Turner, he's the main protagonist of this film. And then O-Dog is his best friend who's kind of the crazy one out, as we'll see. I mean, he's truly one of the more terrifying characters that we have seen without even blinking about it. The crazy thing is there's no sadistic delight in the way that we see these evil laughs. It's more just like, ha, that shit was funny when I killed that guy anyway. So he's one to keep an eye on. So Kane and O-Dog go into this liquor store and they're kind of chit-chatting with each other and they're both clearly like 17, 18 years old. They're not of age to go buy a 40, but they go back to the cooler. And as they're in there, the owners of the liquor store, it's like an Asian-owned liquor store, probably Korean given like the dynamics in LA during that time. And they're kind of following them around. And, you know, I think we're fair to guess that there have been like historically times where them or their friends or people that these owners are just assuming are the same crew have caused all kinds of trouble. So they're following him around the store and, you know, they're like, we don't want any trouble. Just get out. And they're like, well, why are you giving me all this shit? Like, hurry up and buy. Like, get out of here, right?

Steve

Yeah. Yeah.

Nic

And as they're leaving, Kane goes to pay for the 40s and he's like, hey, get my change to O-Dog. And O-Dog gets into it with the cashier. And the guy basically says, I feel sorry for your mother as he's walking away. And it does this zoom in on O-Dog's face, which is just like, all right, this guy's fucking flipped. You know, you feel sorry for who? And he goes after him and immediately takes his gun out. He kills this guy behind the register, goes to the woman, uh, that, you know, probably his wife who's working there, like, yo, give me the, give me the videotape. Like, let's get the surveillance tape. Takes her to the back, kills her. Very, very dark. Comes and robs this guy, and then they take off.

Steve

Yeah, it's interesting. One of the first moments where I was like, okay, I haven't seen this, but like, I've seen this. Yeah, was the exact way O-Dog delivers 'What'd you say about my mama?' Like, that has been, I think, quite deliberately referenced in so many other pieces like just that. And sometimes for a laugh, right? But it's like, obviously not funny here. But it was interesting because when that happened, I was kind of like, oh man, this is— that was my first clue. I'm going to get a bunch of pieces that originated here, right? But have seeped into other parts of culture. And that was like the first way. It's the way he delivered that. It was like such a fantastic kind of line delivery because it doesn't have to be dangerous sounding, but the way Loren State delivered it, it sounds so dangerous, right? You know immediately this man behind the counter is in incredible trouble. And of course, that's, that's what happens. We then get Kane's voiceover, which there's a lot of narration voiceover in this movie. We've seen this in recent pictures as well. We had Wayne Campbell talking to the audience, you know, like last week and, yeah, and a couple weeks ago, a few weeks ago, we had Goodfellas where there was lots of narration to kind of explain things. And so we get a little bit of that and we start kind of like with this, how did we get here? Kind of historically run-up kind of thing. And we start with the Watts riots in 1965. And there's a lot of like really great, I love that they made the footage here super pixelated and kind of grainy and like, you know, and very like filmed on a potato, like kind of thing. It was like, it was just a cool effect to kind of show us we're showing you the past, but obviously there's gonna be so many parallels to the future, to the present once we get there. And we get this whole flashback sequence with young Kane, how he grew up. His dad, played by Samuel L. Jackson, was a drug dealer and his mom was a heroin addict. And so it's like clear that like he started like he didn't have a chance from jump street about not being part of this life. Like, no, where he was born into, you know, obviously you can work your way out of the area, but like what— or out of the situation, but where you're starting from, right? He has no advantages there. There's nothing that is like given to him or set up for him. He is coming into the world in kind of one of the hardest ways to do so. At least in the United States, in the— he would have been born, what, in the late '70s, right, based on, on all this. So yeah, very interesting.

Nic

And then yeah, no positive examples anywhere, you know. And, um, and young Kane, I mean, so much is told to us through this scene of his parents' party that they're having. So we get to see like what this young child is being exposed to, who, who his role models are, right? Um, so one of the— he's kind of talking about, you know, his dad was a drug dealer, you know, the riots stopped, the drugs started, so drugs started flowing into the community. His dad was a drug dealer, his mom was a heroin addict. And, um, it shows him as like a, I don't know, 6-year-old child, give or take. He comes out to the stoop during this party, he sneaks out in his PJs, and there's two kind of like early 20s type guys out there who are like guys who maybe look after him, who understand how shitty his parents are but don't know enough to like properly rescue, you know, they just know this is fucked up where we live.

Steve

Well, and this is— I think even these guys are younger. I think really we're supposed to see these two as the same age as Kane and O-Dog during the rest of the movie because there's this, but there's this bookend, right? So we get to at the end that really kind of like mirrors this image. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's just, you know, the, the one of the main stories of this movie, and we get it starting from the very beginning, is how breaking cycles is, is very difficult, if not impossible, right? Even when you try to break cycles, sometimes it works against you. And this is the, the setup of like, how did Kane get to where he is when we first start the movie, right? Essentially, how did he get to where he had to be to be in that convenience store when O-Dog killed those people, right?

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And, and this is like he had no chance. This was it.

Nic

And, and he's out there and these two guys are like, hey, you know, give this kid a drink, right?

Steve

Right.

Nic

You know, and, and they give him a sip of brandy and stuff. He's like, what the— and then he's asking if he can hold their gun, right, and stuff. And, you know, his mom comes out right as he's about to like kind of take a look at this gun. Uh, so this guy, his kind of mentor when he was a kid, is this guy named Purnell. So that's who we see there at the beginning.

Steve

Yep.

Nic

Um, so then, uh, we go to like a later in that night scene of the party Right. You know, it's kind of winding down. There's a card game. Samuel L. Jackson, the buddies are playing cards and there's a conversation with one of his friends like, hey, now that you're out of the joint. Yeah, you have the money you owe me.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And this guy, of course, being very tough with him, like, fuck you. Like, I'll pay you, pay you when I fucking feel like it.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

You know, this back and forth, very tense scene.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Samuel L., whose name is Tatloss, and he pulls out a gun on this guy, points it at him. This guy's completely unfazed. No, squeeze that shit. You know, I just spent 5 years in the joint. You think I'm scared because you got a pistol, motherfucker? And then pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. So, uh, the voiceover of Kane says, that was the first time I've ever seen my father kill anyone, but it wouldn't be the last.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And this is like, you know, sets us up for who he is now as we get to Watts, 1993.

Steve

Right. And so now we're present, back to present day basically, uh, and Kane is graduating high school, which, which is an accomplishment for sure, and something that the people around him are you know, congratulate him for and kind of recognize as like an achievement. His parents are both gone. He says that his mother overdosed at one point and his father, I think, died when he was like 10.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So really, if you think about then when he said that wasn't the first time or that was the first time I saw my father kill somebody, but not the last, he must have seen more murders in just a couple of years because his father only lived a few more years from that point. So, you know, that's just kind of like when you think about the compression of that timeline. But yeah, so he is out You know, out of school, all done, you know, ready. His grandparents are where he lives. He lives with his grandparents. They're very congratulatory of him. His grandfather is a Bible thumper. You know, he's always quoting the Bible. He's very into religion.

Nic

I love the grandparents, by the way. It's just like, it's the one of the only like comforting presences in this entire movie, which is interesting because they are, but also like the sort of—.

Steve

I like that they chose to have the grandparents not purely be Oh, well, these are just good people who took him in, whatever. But by having the religious angle of it, there's an element there that to me is interesting of, you know, did the grandfather especially take Cain in out of a sense of like love and sort of like whatever? Or what did he feel like it was duty? This is what I have to do as a Christian. Like, yeah, I don't actually want to do this, but this will help me get into heaven. Like that kind of stuff is always an interesting— there's an interesting sort of element there to people's motivations if they're religiously driven. Not that it takes away the good that you do, but it is this kind of an interesting take. And given that they are you know, they are not the only characters with religious sort of like drive behind them, that there are others. And they're, you know, the Hughes brothers are clearly making statements about how religion does or does not help.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

In a situation like this, I think it was an interesting choice to have the grandfather especially be so religious.

Nic

Yeah, definitely. Uh, and also, I mean, it is one of those things that's kind of the only thing you could cling to at some point.

Steve

Sure.

Nic

You don't blame people for leaning hard into that where it's like Open your front fucking door and then open the barred door that covers that door and then open the bulletproof door that opens that. Look outside and maybe I'll stay in here with my Bible.

Steve

Right? Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah.

Nic

So we're moving through like these different kind of like scenes of Kane's life after, you know, his senior year of high school ends and he's headed now to a house party with his cousin Harold. Cousin Harold's played by this guy named Safir. He's a rapper from the Bay Area. He passed away recently. Check out Safir. He had this group with Razz Kass and Xzibit that was called the Golden State Project, and they had a good song that used like the NBA theme song. So yeah, check out Safir.

Steve

Roundball Rock.

Nic

Interesting flow.

Steve

Roundball Rock from John Tesh. That's all nice. I was not familiar with Safir, but I am of course familiar with the maybe much more famous Bay Area rapper who appears later in the movie. Yeah, but yeah, I didn't realize there were multiple.

Nic

Yeah, a lot of rappers in this movie.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So, so he arrives at this party with Cousin Harold. This party is at Doc's house, and Doc is played by another rapper named Poo Man. Who's not like very notable as a rapper, right? Uh, so we get to like walk through and then meet his buddies who are shooting dice in the back. So this is kind of the crew that we have. We have Kane, Tyron Turner, the main guy. We got O-Dog, who we saw earlier at the liquor store. Yeah, we've got their friend Awax, who's kind of like— he's described as a few years older than them, and he just kind of liked to instigate stuff and watch other people get in trouble. And he's very well played by another rapper named MC8. Then we have Sharif, who's their friend, who is probably like, you know, getting into shit with them at some point, but had converted to Islam. Right now he's kind of like straight edge, trying to keep them off it, trying to talk to them about Islam.

Steve

Yeah, very, very Louis Farrakhan style. Exactly. Islam.

Nic

Yeah, exactly. And then their other friend Stacy, who's kind of like the smooth, like, player. He's like, he's a football player. He's going to move to Kansas to play football. That's a plan that they have.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Later on.

Steve

And I recognize the actor, but I'm not sure from where.

Nic

He's been in a couple things. He has not been in very much.

Steve

Okay.

Nic

Um, so that's kind of like the crew that they have.

Steve

Okay.

Nic

And, uh, so we're at the party, we meet everyone, and then, you know, Cousin Harold's hungry, so I, I gotta go get some food. Let's head out to Jack in the Crack.

Steve

Right. Which is something that I— my friends and I used to call Jack in the Box Jack in the Crack, and I had no idea why.

Nic

It rhymes from this though. It might have been around.

Steve

It might have been around, but also like, I mean, '93, I was only 13. I don't think I started using that term until I was 16 or 17 with friends going to the, you know, Jack in the Box. So it's just funny that either I heard it from someone who heard it from this. Yeah, right. And so I never had, you know, put it to— but somebody— I was— when they said Jack in the Crack, I went, oh, we used to call it Jack in the Crack.

Nic

To hear some Jack in the Crack.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, yeah, so they're gonna go over to, uh, to Jack in the Box. Kane drives with Cousin Harold, who he describes earlier as like kind of a guy he looks up to.

Steve

This is my cousin.

Nic

He lives in Long Beach. He's a real hustler. He's got a house. He's got a Beamer. He's got a fat pocket. Like, this is a guy I want to be.

Steve

Yeah, exactly.

Nic

So they're going to Jack in the Box. Awax and the other crew, it's like, well, I gotta get gas first, so we'll do that and then we'll meet you there. And then we get a very dramatic shot here as Kane and Harold pull up to the Crenshaw, uh, stoplight. We get a 2 as it turns from green to red, right? So they're stuck at this light and they're just kind of talking, and they're both fucking drunk, by the way. Yeah, they've been drinking 40s at this party. Uh, I do love Cousin Harold's like Man, I'm fucked up. And Kane's like, oh, what'd you have to drink? He's like, all I had was 2 40s.

Steve

That's a lot.

Nic

2 40s of what? 2 40s of IEDs, baby. And if you were a 40 drinker, if you were a malt liquor aficionado like I was, St. Ives, like, right below Camo as something that would absolutely destroy you. So Cousin Harold driving off 2 IEDs, I have to commend just in like the technical sense of that being difficult.

Steve

So I have a funny story about 40s because I remember— so this is— this will be a great story in case anybody Greg, if you're out there listening, pay attention. Back in high school, my best friend's older sister's boyfriend bought us beer for a party. Like we gave him money and like an order, like a shopping list. Be like, hey man, please. Like we were all, we wanted like, I don't know why, but we were all into Henry Weinhardts at the time.

Nic

So like, you know, so we got some fancy, cheap beer, but it was still cheap.

Steve

So we're like, get us some Weinhardts, get us some like Rolling Rock, get us some, I think like Red Wolf. I think that was a big thing, right? Yeah. So the stuff, and we gave him a bunch of money and we're like, hey, you know, make sure you get yourself, like get yourself a six-pack of something, like whatever. And he goes, no, no, I can buy my own beer. It's like, if there's any money left over, I'll just like get some random stuff for you. We're like, all right, cool. So he leaves, uh, goes to do that. When he comes back, he's got— the dude was good at all of our orders, no change, but like all the correct stuff. And then 4 40-ounce bottles: Old English, St. Ives, King Cobra, and Country Club. And it was Country Club. Let me just say, that was one of the more interesting nights of my young life. Yeah, that stuff hit real different than here.

Nic

And like, look, there's, there's a lot of rap songs, like you'll hear Ice Cube and stuff talking about how, you know, this was formulated to cause like violence and strife in the community. And when you drink it, you're like, yeah, fucking maybe, right?

Steve

Yeah, possibly pre-4 Loco.

Nic

Because really, it does something different to you. Yeah. So, so Kane and Harold here at the light. Yeah. Their friends are getting gas, and then this van pulls up on Kane and Harold, guns in their faces immediately. Yeah, get out the car, get out the car, like screaming at him.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

And what Harold turns to Kane, and he's like, Kane, get out the car. I'm not going out like a chump. Like, just immediately makes the decision that, yeah, his life is not worth as much as his reputation of like protecting his car, or, or if he feels like he's fucked anyway, or whatever. But It was such like a quick resignation. And also, he's 2 40s deep, but also he's better at drinking 2 40s than I would be, right?

Steve

Fair.

Nic

Um, so yeah, this shit was crazy. Kane goes to get out and Harold makes a— not even a move towards his gun, and they just light him up and blast him, and it is absolutely brutal.

Steve

And they catch Kane in the shoulder as well, it looks like, or, you know, he's definitely shot. And I do think that Harold's calculus in that moment was basically you know, an innate understanding that his life would be immeasurably worse if word got out that he just gave up his car.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Right? Like if he survives this incident, but survives by, you know, just giving it up, getting out of the car, giving up the car and whatever, like his life on the street where he lives and in the communities that he's in, like, is going to be immeasurably worse. He's gonna be a target for everyone who ever catches wind of this. And so he decides in that moment, I mean, you know, if I've got a 1% chance of surviving this, that's the chance I'm gonna take. I mean, you know, in his mind—.

Nic

His whole rep is built on being the guy who would never give up his car.

Steve

Exactly, yeah. And so it's incredibly tragic that that's the calculus he has to make, but also incredibly logical. Like, given his set of circumstances, it is a perfectly logical conclusion to come to, which is part of the tragedy, so.

Nic

Yeah, and I mean, a lot of the tragedy of this is just the, the kind of smallness of the world that, that these characters all live in, right? Where such a small range of things actually matter to them.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Despite being young and able-bodied and healthy and having mobility and having cars and living in LA. Like, you hear so much about these people who live, you know, 3 miles from the ocean and have never seen it in their life because literally the only thing that matters is that neighborhood and that reputation and all that stuff. So yeah, it really shows like how tiny the fucking world is.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And even like the scene of AWACS and the other people going to get gas, which is just a little bit of something else to happen while this— Harold's getting shot is like they're playing dice earlier. They're throwing like 20s and hundreds down and all this stuff. And then when he actually goes to get gas, he gets $3 worth of gas. That's right.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So it's almost like our world, like money is for dice and drug dealing. But when I come out into the real world, I am broke and scrapping and like, it's fucking crazy. So Yeah, so Cousin Harold is— he's dying. I mean, but he's clearly going to die. So the choice is we got to get Kane to the hospital now. Harold's dead, we've got to leave him here. And Sharif is like, we can't just leave him here in the middle of the road. They're like, look, he's dead, we got to deal with that shit another time. And Sharif's like, fuck it, I'm going to stay with them. And they all go to the hospital. Yeah, with Kane. Yeah, um, some pretty wild stuff. Great scene of them bursting in. I do love the urgency, like this whole shot of them bursting into the ER and bringing him, and he's bloody, and they're all covered in his blood, and he's struggling to breathe. And they go up to the desk and like, bitch, we need a doctor right now. She's like, you gotta fill out these forms.

Steve

Fuck your forms.

Nic

Like, fuck your forms, we need a doctor.

Steve

Um, and honestly, they are absolutely 100% correct. Like, there needs to be no form, no nothing. Like, get a triage nurse in here immediately. Like, this man seriously has been shot but is clearly alive, which means you have a chance to save him.

Nic

Yeah, like, yeah, I mean, the fuck your form should be like its own wing of the hospital, you know, where it's like, look No, we are post-paperwork here.

Steve

That's supposed to be the ER. ER is supposed to be the fuck your forms part of the house. So when are the forms over with? Exactly. So yeah, so Kane is brought in and, you know, they do a good job here of like outside of him being the main character and the narrator of the voiceover and therefore knowing the movie's not over yet. You know, if the Hughes brothers had decided that this was the end of the movie and that this did kill him and we then get a flashback for the rest of it, it wouldn't have shocked me. Like they really laid in, like, just how hurt he is. I mean, he's like coughing up blood and doing— it's just really nasty, uh, and it's clearly a serious injury. But he is, he is okay because we immediately cut to, like, you know, I guess a few days, maybe a week later. He's still in the hospital, but he's bandaged up. He's— they've got him watching It's a Wonderful Life on TV, I think.

Nic

He's watching, like, old, uh, kind of mobster movies.

Steve

Oh, that's right.

Nic

He's saying, like, you know, I didn't have anything to do in the hospital except for watch old gangster movies and think about my cousin. So he's just like kind of— yeah, he's in revenge mode. That's the only thing that he's thinking about right now.

Steve

Right. But Ronnie comes to the hospital, right? Yeah.

Nic

So Ronnie comes to pick him up.

Steve

That's right. Yeah.

Nic

So that's, that's very nice. And then when he's back with the grandparents, so now he's kind of like post-hospital, I get to hang with my grandparents. I can't really go out and stuff.

Steve

And he's got on the bench. Yeah.

Nic

It's a Wonderful Life with his grandparents, which, uh, Menace II Society Christmas movie.

Steve

I mean, more Christmasy than Rocky IV, so Um, so, you know, you can—.

Nic

It's a— it's first of all just a great general— I think if you're a filmmaker, you probably have a dream to be like, I need to throw a little homage to It's a Wonderful Life in my movie, because so many movies show It's a Wonderful Life in them.

Steve

You know, it's something about— I think it's something about Frank Capra, and it's something about the early days of American cinema, and something, you know, I mean, there's all this, this, you know, history built in there. And I feel like Capra is the the studious filmmaker versus like Wells or Hitchcock, who I think like more people recognize, like, oh yeah, they did really amazing stuff, you know, early in the days of American cinema. But Capra, like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, It's a Wonderful Life, like that's a different kind of Americana that was being, he's like the, what is it? The Rockwell or whatever of, or no, Norman, oh fuck it, whatever.

Nic

Yeah, Norman Rockwell.

Steve

It was Rockwell, yeah, yeah, yeah. Saturday Evening Post, that shit, right? Like, yeah, he's like that, but for movies from that era, right? And so there's, I feel like, especially if you're the Hughes brothers, you're making this movie, the more distinctions and comparisons you can draw to that. Oh, this is what little town America is versus what you're showing people.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

It's just such a great, like, kind of dichotomy and contrast. And it's, you know, and then again, the fact that, you know, the grandparents are here just, just trying to live their lives in the middle of everything going on in Watts and they're watching It's a Wonderful Life. I mean, there's just, well, there's something so bucolic about it.

Nic

It's a Wonderful Life. The whole purpose of the movie is showing this guy that he has reasons to live.

Steve

Right, right.

Nic

So it is kind of fun. It's like one of those things, like the Art of War thing I talked about during the Wall Street episode where I was looking for this little like subtle hint to the Art of War and then he just bangs you over the head with it.

Steve

Right.

Nic

So right after this, they're watching It's a Wonderful Life and O-Dog pops in. He's like, hey, Cain, you know, you come hang out. And he goes and he comes in to sit down and the grandfather's talking about these kids like, you know, I don't like what I'm hearing. Basically saying so casually, I know you guys have killed people, right? And the Bible says you shouldn't do that.

Steve

Yep, exactly.

Nic

And, uh, you know, chapter and verse. They end up going outside. So it's like, oh, Grandpa always telling us not to kill people, this fucking guy. And when they walk outside, Grandpa opens the door and he says, Cain, do you care whether you live or die? And then Cain takes a beat and kind of like looks down. Well, O-Dog's just kind of like, man, forget this shit, let's get out of here. And Cain's like, I don't know.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And then he walks away. So it was like grandpa's watching It's a Wonderful Life and being like, yeah, hey, Kane is, Kane is George Bailey.

Steve

So real quick on that. This is interesting. So, uh, in the, uh, last few weeks, you, you and I took a couple weeks off recording. The audience doesn't know that cuz we put out an episode every week, but we record these in batches. So it had been like 5 weeks, I think, between sessions. And in that time I, I, I wrote a screenplay for the first time in my life, which is a lot of fun. I finally did it, which is great. Um, one of the things that I studied in learning how to write is like the, the structure. Of movies and like how you kind of have to have these elements. And one of the things that they— you need somewhere in the movie, usually early, is what they call the theme stated, right? So like, what is your movie about? And, you know, whether or not it's literally a character saying something out loud that does it or, you know, an image that you're showing to the audience that sort of does it. But somewhere along the lines, you got to like make it clear what's this movie about? And this is a very clear theme stated from Grandpa here, right? Do you care if you live or die? That is the theme of the entire movie. 2 Dads 2 Decades movie. Yeah. And I think we already— here's the fun thing I thought about it is that Harold already gave us that theme in his decision to not give up his car. Right. But it was subtle. If that's all that had been there, it wouldn't have been quite as obvious. So having Grandpa say it does make sense. It's a little on the nose to just come right out and say it, but that's okay. It's important that we get this moment and it's important for Kane's character that he has to think about it for a second. Right.

Nic

Right.

Steve

And I think that, you know, like you said, O-Dog is immediately dismissive. Like, this isn't even a question you need to think about. Like, fuck it, let's just go. Yeah. Right. You know, sort of like approach with thoughts like this to just be like, fuck it, that's not important. What's important is like, where's my next dollar coming from? Where's, you know, like what's going to happen next? Like that's what's important. All this philosophical thinking bullshit. I don't want to do it. But Kane very tellingly takes— there's a beat of 3, 4 seconds before he even responds. So he is clearly thinking this over. Yeah. And the fact that he can't come to an answer, like just like he does says he doesn't know, is again sort of just the entire theme of the movie encapsulated. So that's, telling us what the rest of the movie is going to be about.

Nic

Totally.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Yeah. And, um, and I don't know, maybe they have to bang us over the head with that a little bit just so that this doesn't seem like more of an exploitative movie, potentially this type of scenario. But, um, so, so Kane is out there with O-Dog, and what O-Dog tells him, he's like, uh, he's like, we found the guys who shot you and Harold, you down with the 187? Like, we're gonna go kill these guys. And Kane's like, all right, let's do it.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So they end up at one of their friend's house, like getting the guns together and everything. And they're watching the surveillance video that O-Dog had taken earlier from the convenience store. So he's circulating this among his friends. So some of his other friends are there. We've got Luloke, who I think it's his house and played by Too Short.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

Who we love to see in this. And then Chauncey, who's not played by a rapper. He's an actor named Clifton Powell. He's in a ton of shit.

Steve

Pinky in Next Friday, man. Yeah, he's very, very funny in this.

Nic

And he's like, a level— him and Luloke, I think, are kind of a level above them. They're maybe like, you know, 3, 4, 5 years older. Yeah, they get Kane and O-Dog to kind of do some of their dirt, as we see in a little bit. Um, but now we've got Kane and O-Dog with AWACS driving around in the car. Yeah, looking to do their drive-by. They're looking for the guys and having a conversation about like Kane saying, hey, like, I don't want to shoot any kids or old people. And they're like, like, who's gonna be old out at midnight? And like, I don't give a fuck who I kill. And very like callous about that. And, uh, all this whole time we have Love and Happiness by Al Green playing underneath it, which I, I really, really love that. And, uh, I didn't think that song would make me want to do a drive-by the first time I heard it, but that's all it makes me want to do here. Um, so yeah, they're driving around and they end up spotting these guys at like a burger stand, right?

Steve

Just getting roasted by the girl who's working at the burger stand, trying to get a freebie.

Nic

Really funny, like knowing that these guys are about to get shot, but also they're getting demoralized by asking for free food, and this girl is just like standing hard and, and roasting the shit out of both of them.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, yeah, so we get a, a pretty gruesome, uh, scene here.

Steve

It was interesting too, I think, uh, you know, so, so again, not having seen this before, my first time through, I was thinking to myself, boy, I also hope nobody kills any, any kids especially. I mean, old people, like, that would suck, but like, you know, whatever. Um, so it was kind of nice that it was a very like, uh, because I, you know, I couldn't tell at at the beginning where it was just gonna be a drive-by. Was this gonna be like a home invasion kind of thing? Were they gonna bust down a door to do this? Like, what was it, right? And sure enough, these guys are kind of out in the open. They don't really do a drive-by. What is it? Awax parks, and then O-Dog and Kane come out and kind of go around the side of the building, and they come around, and O-Dog's got a shotgun, I believe. So they're going, but one of the guys, he takes a few shots, but then he runs off. And, you know, I was thinking to myself, like, I don't know, I'm always like trying to think like, oh, how's this gonna come back and like fuck the characters over with this? And I thought, man, this guy's gonna get away. And then it's gonna be like, that's gonna be it. They're gonna have like a hit on him, like whatever. No, AWACS catches him as he comes around, be like, hey man, you, you need some help, homie, you need some help. And then, okay, so that's— that revenge is handled. So Harold's killers and the person who shot Kane, they're dead now.

Nic

Um, yeah, so, yeah, so he's like, you know, this has happened, right? And we're back to kind of Kane sitting back in his bedroom, and he says, uh, gun on the pillow this time though. Yeah, like, and he goes, uh, I thought killing those fools would make me feel good, but it really didn't make me feel anything. And he's like, all it really showed me is that I could kill someone and I could do it again if I had to.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, so really rough. And so we have to go to like something normal for a minute, and we have Kane going to visit Ronnie. And we talked about Ronnie a little bit earlier. Ronnie's played by Jada Pinkett.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, and Ronnie is Purnell's girlfriend, or was Purnell's girlfriend before he went to jail. So Purnell is kind of his mentor we saw earlier that gave him the liquor on the stoop.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And everything. And she has a son who's maybe, I don't know, 5, 6 years old.

Steve

Yep.

Nic

Uh, Anthony. So Kane is kind of like, he takes it upon himself a bit to watch out for them. He tries to give them money, tries to just check in on him because it was his dude's family and he's trying to like be a good friend.

Steve

Yeah. Anthony's Parnell's son. They— I think he said that Ronnie was like pregnant when Parnell went away, right? Shortly after Parnell went away for life. We learned he's life with no possibility of parole.

Nic

And they don't say what he did, but I mean, you can imagine murder, I would assume, at that point.

Steve

But like, you know, so that like Kane looks at it as Purnell would do this for me. Like if I was in this situation and I was gone and I left behind a kid, like Purnell would take care of that kid. So I'm going to do that.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And I'm going to take care of Ronnie. I'm going to take her. So he's always trying to slip her cash, you know, put money into her sock drawer, like whatever, just give her a job. But she's all— he's always like trying to help out. And, and she's, you know, it's a very nuanced character, Ronnie. I think, you know, she, she obviously cares for Kane. She obviously loved Purnell, at least at one time. And, you know, but now she's a mom, so like nothing else trumps that, right? For her, it's just all about, you know, how can she take care of Anthony? How can she provide for him?

Nic

Um, and as she sees her son getting older and sees like this world that they're in get reflected in him more and more, she's just like disgusted by this whole like situation that they're expected to survive, right?

Steve

Because now she has the perspective not of, oh, a, a boyfriend or maybe husband, somebody like that's the person who's involved in this, and I have that creates certain things she has to deal with or reconcile in her head. Now it's, my own son is gonna grow up in this? That is not acceptable. That's something where she sees that she, or I mean, she comes to see, I think, over the course of the story, that she has some agency here and she can change this thing that we were talking about earlier, breaking cycles. Like, she's gonna try to break the cycle of like, you know, Anthony does not have to grow up where Parnell grew up. Anthony does not have to end up the way Kane and O-Dog are turning out, right? Like, it doesn't have to be that way.

Nic

And the things that— The things that Cain is saying to him, Cain is cursing him around, or Anthony curses and she's like, "Hey, no cursing in the house." And Cain's like, "Oh, you gotta learn how to talk like that if you're going to be hard." Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, "It's not even about being hard." She's just like, "You're teaching him how to survive in this area that I have no intention on fucking raising him in." And he's 5. Yeah, he's this little kid. But Cain also is kind of a good— good fun, at least like a fun uncle, good big brother. Like, he does care about this.

Steve

Oh, absolutely.

Nic

He does want to look out for him, right? So he shows up and the kid is like, hey, you want to play me at boxing? So they're going to play this video game, right?

Steve

Looks like Genesis based on the controllers that they're holding.

Nic

So, so we're playing some, uh, some Sega Genesis and there's like sitting down on the floor and then Kane's like, hold on a minute, and like leans back, pulls his gun off from his waist because it's like jabbing into him, and, uh, sets it on the table. And immediately Anthony, that's all he cares about. He's like, yo, let me see that gun. And He's showing Anthony basically how to hold the gun, and Ronnie walks in and sees and is justifiably fucking, fucking furious. I mean, that, that would probably be at least a, you're not allowed at my house until I've had some time to think about this thing, right?

Steve

Yeah, at least give me a moment. Yeah. And, and, and he knows like how bad it is because the first thing out of his mouth is it's not loaded.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So it's like, all right, so you already know this is a fucking terrible idea. You had to like go that route out even to make this something. You know, it's just like, it's, it's so funny the way people tell on themselves when it comes to like knowing they've done wrong. Yeah, it's not really about admitting things. It's like you try to spin it as soon as you get caught in it. And that's what he does. And she's not having it quite well. Ronnie is one of the more, um, logically kind of consistent and morally consistent characters in the movie in a lot of ways. And so she's just not having this. She's, she tells him get the fuck out, won't take his money. He tries to give her more money and she's like, no, He eventually like literally drops it on the ground as he leaves, and I don't think she doesn't pick it up. Like, she just kind of like— she's disgusted by it. Yeah.

Nic

So, um, yeah. And so there's a quick shot from there of just their other friends, like O-Dog and Awax, are just kind of hanging at the stoop in the projects where they live, and the cops pull up and do a one-time, which is basically the cops rushing up on a crowd of people to bust whoever they can, like nothing announced. Just not, not something you want the police department that represents you to be doing to the population. Like, it's not effective. It's just kind of one of those like police terror tactics where they're going back and forth on each other. So we get to see this guy who's trying to buy, uh, crack from AWACS, and he's got $2. He's like, man, I got $2. He's like, no, come with $20. He's like, I got $2. Hey, I got these, uh, cheeseburgers, you know, I'll give you these. So he's trying to negotiate that. We see that guy a little later.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Yeah, we are at now Chauncey's house, and once again all the friends are still like watching the robbery tape.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So this is going around, like every guy that comes in is watching.

Steve

I don't—.

Nic

It's very short, like the relevant part of it is very short, right? So that VHS is starting to get worn.

Steve

I mean, yeah, it's just— and just the— like, I know, you know, O-Dog is not— is not being shown to us as either the most sort of like ethical or really most intelligent of the characters in this. I mean, of the characters in his friend group. He's not the smartest by several leaps, but like, God, like you gotta know this is you showing evidence of a crime to people, people, you know, and not a small crime. It's not a video of you shoplifting. This is murder one. Like this is not, you know what I mean? Like I don't, like I just, and again, this is part of my reality and where I was brought up and how and everything coming into where it's like, I don't understand this. But I bet it, makes sense in some way for this person to act this way. But it's just like, to me, it's like, no, this is so clearly like, this is just gonna hurt you, man. Like, don't, don't— this is so self-destructive.

Nic

It has to not even occur to you that there would be a consequence, right? And O-Dog is almost like— I haven't looked into this, but I bet someone could do like a, uh, a Fight Club type analysis that O-Dog was just like a Tyler Durden this whole time, because there's no explanation of his origin. Like, he doesn't have a house, he doesn't have parents, He didn't come from anywhere. He's just like a pure, like, unfiltered id of like what you would think the most evil person in that scenario is going to do to just like amuse themselves or survive.

Steve

He never gets arrested. He never gets shot.

Nic

You know, he's like, oh, what if you're right, dude?

Steve

What? I mean, how many other people? Well, but he's— hmm. Here's the question. I've never had— not thought of that till you thought— till you mentioned it. But the question I would want to go back and watch this movie is how many people directly speak to O-Dog when Kane is not not present. Because if that happens, it would cut that out. But it seems like we see O-Dog shooting crap, you know, shooting dice, and then Kane walks up, but O-Dog immediately interacts with Kane.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Okay, so maybe he wasn't actually shooting dice, right? There's all these elements where he's, he's in a group or with Kane alone. We never see O-Dog alone, and we never see O-Dog with someone who isn't Kane on their own. I don't think so. That would be the kind of question mark of like, the only time we see him actually, we do see him in a minute here.

Nic

But I don't know, it's interesting thought, but just like we're probably jumping into sense anyway, right? So even if the actual guy isn't supposed to be that, it's like he is that, like serving that purpose.

Steve

I mean, he is the id.

Nic

Kane is the ego, right?

Steve

O-Dog is the id, Kane is the ego in a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah. So, and Sharif would be the superego, right?

Nic

Um, okay, so, so we're at Chauncey's house, they're hanging out, they're watching the video. Uh, there's a knock on the door and Chauncey's gonna go wake up, so they send Chauncey to answer his door and there is a very nerdy-looking white dude with probably the worst haircut I've ever seen.

Steve

Terrible.

Nic

It's like, I don't even know how to describe it, dude. It's like a bowl cut of a different haircut. Like, it just, it just has this hard cutoff on the sideburns that I don't understand, but then it poofs out. Anyway, so this guy is, he's like a business crime associate of theirs and probably trying to do some kind of insurance fraud.

Steve

That's what it sounds like.

Nic

And he gives Chauncey a picture of this this car, like, you know, black 1990 Nissan Maxima. It's got to look just like this, basically saying steal this car, fucking light it on fire, we'll say it was this car that we have title to, we're going to claim the insurance money, something like that. Uh, and Chauncey sends Awax and O-Dog and Kane, like, they're out kind of doing his dirty work looking for this car.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. And, and it's— they go into a parking garage and, you know, it looks kind of— not a lot of people around, but we do get real quick and notice that a security guard notices them drive in And, you know, they find a car, which it was funny. I don't even think it was the same model. I think it was like a Honda Prelude or something. It was black, but it like wasn't the right car. But anyway, O-Dog and Kane get out and they go, you know, he's got the jimmy, whatever Kane does, like for the window. And they go and they steal the car and they get the alarm. You know, it looks okay, except that the security guard has called the cops. So as they go to try to exit, boom, here come the cops rolling right up onto them. They ditch the car, run back into the parking garage, try to hide. But of course, The cops have the most racist dog in the world, the German Shepherd. That's right, German Shepherd. Immediately hunts them down. And we don't see the dog attack the two. This is a good example of using your budget wisely.

Nic

Yes.

Steve

Trying to show us a dog attack would have been very— It would look bad. It would either look wrong or be very expensive to get right. So doing it all where we're kind of looking at the wheels of a car that we know they're kind of behind as they're yelling to get the dog off of them, right? It just gives us the thing. So. Yeah, so they go and then, uh, yeah, right.

Nic

So they're both caught and, uh, and what Kane says— so Kane is in jail, so we kind of— he gets a voiceover as he's walking into jail and he's an adult, he's a, he's a man, so he's in adult jail and he's looking around and everything. Uh, he said it was his first offense, so he didn't really get much, uh, thrown at him.

Steve

Instead of GTA, it was like attempted joyriding.

Nic

That's right. Uh, and then O-Dog was a minor, so he got, he got let off. Off.

Steve

He had to do some time with like the boys ranch or something. It was something, it was like he did say something that he had to go do, but it was like for a week, it was like something minimal, you know, he's a kid.

Nic

So, um, so, so they're like out, you know, they're, they're out. And we get the scene back in the alley with the crackhead who was trying to get the, the $20 for $2, and he's talking to O-Dog, he's like, hey, come on, man, like just hook me up this one time. Yeah, he's like, nah, man, get the fuck out of here. I got these cheeseburgers, I get these double cheeseburgers that bag did not have enough weight to hold 2 double cheeseburgers. I, I would— I'm suspicious of that. So he was at the very least lying about the contents of that bag. Um, and, and he says to O-Dog, he's like, come on, man, I'll suck your dick. And he's like, what the fuck did you say? He's like, I'll suck your— he shouldn't have doubled down on that. Suck your dick. He should have been like, I, I don't know, man, these drugs are making me crazy.

Steve

Exactly. The response from O-Dog made it clear that like that wasn't gonna happen. That's not a way— that's not a payment method that's gonna be accepted.

Nic

Repeat yourself, please, I didn't catch that.

Steve

Confirm this new deal that you'd like to offer? Like, no, he was fucking pissed. So it's, yeah, doubling down on it.

Nic

And, uh, so yeah, you know, then O-Dog just shoots and kills this guy. And I don't—.

Steve

Did he die?

Nic

Oh, for sure.

Steve

I thought he shot him in the dick and he— that's why he was like doubled over or whatever.

Nic

But I think they just didn't want to use a squib.

Steve

That's fair, that's okay.

Nic

But, uh, but yeah, so then Awax and the, and the other girl who's kind of part of their crew are standing over there looking at O-Dog and it's not like, oh my God, yeah, it's just like, man, you're stupid.

Steve

Yeah, right.

Nic

Why are you doing that shit? What's wrong with you?

Steve

Are you killing that crackhead?

Nic

Very, very kind of like— it's so weird because like Goodfellas, like the same kind of psycho shit, like Tommy in Goodfellas.

Steve

Oh yeah.

Nic

Does similar, like emotionally driven psychotic shit, you know? And the friends also have very casual reactions to him. And I don't know why it feels— it's because they didn't give any kind of like funny how element to O-Dog. Like there's not a charisma behind it. It's just like a blankness of like, I'm just unpredictability personified.

Steve

This is— I mean, look, there's, there's an element, there's an element of— to be totally honest, there's an element of latent like kind of prejudice or whatever underneath it all. The white characters, the black characters, like that's— you can't ignore that, right? There's that. It feels different because we've been trained by society that it is different. I think the age of the characters though does actually play in as well. Knowing that O-Dog is 17 years old, it just feels different than Tommy DeVito at 30 killing Spider. You know what I mean? It does just feel different because he's a kid too. And then I think there's the element of, you know, that when Tommy DeVito kills somebody or Jimmy kills somebody in Goodfellas, there is a system around them to sort of protect them when that happens. They are part of an organization that is sworn essentially to protect them. And we know O-Dog and Kane, they don't have have that.

Nic

Yeah, right.

Steve

So there, there is a, a, um, a vulnerability that this kind of creates for them. Every time they kill somebody or beat somebody up or whatever, as we find out later, it adds an enemy to the roster. And so, and then if you're, you know, even Tommy not made, he was still protected by the fact that he worked for Paulie and like all this stuff. So there's definitely, um, a difference there. But I think, and I, you know, the race part I'm not going to ignore, but I do think the age and then the system of support that the gangsters, the mobsters have that these kids in Watts don't, I think is what makes it feel so different. And then you're right, the Tommy character in Goodfellas is played for laughs in a way that O-Dog never is.

Nic

Yeah, yeah. So brutal, you know, O-Dog takes this guy out. So very quick scene, but this is another very memorable in the culture kind of thing, right? Oh yeah, I'll suck your dick.

Steve

I'll suck your dick, yep.

Nic

So Caine finds out now that his fingerprints were lifted off this broken 40 bottle from the robbery earlier, 'cause he was printed when he was processed earlier, and now he's being questioned by the cops. And we get one of our favorites, the great Bill Duke.

Steve

I was super stoked to see this scene.

Nic

And again, great version of this in Don't Be a Menace. Yes, like this crosses over very well to that. But we get Bill Duke, you know, very no-nonsense, you know, going through the details. So you bought the bottle of beer at 11:15, you sure about that? He keeps repeating that, and then a couple times later he goes Goes, so you're telling me for sure you bought the bottle of beer at 12:15? And Kane's like, yeah, yeah, 12:15, you know, if I'm not mistaken. You know you don't fucked up.

Steve

You know you fucked up, right? You know that.

Nic

So he catches him in this kind of trick, but really the cops don't have actual shit on him.

Steve

Well, they don't have the tape, so they don't have evidence. It's like, and he, you know, the—.

Nic

There—.

Steve

It's not enough to say, yeah, you killed this guy because a broken bottle, right?

Nic

Because someone else was coming in. Yeah, yeah, we were leaving and all this stuff.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, so Kane, he's home from jail, but he's sick, as happens many times. And I think this is like, you don't see this in every movie. Like, a lot of times if you go to jail for more than a couple days, you will come home sick because everyone's constantly fucking sick there. So Kane is home and he's puking and everything, and Stacy and Sharif show up to his house to go pick him up. Hey, we're gonna go take you to get this new car.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nic

And they're kind of talking about their plan to, uh, to move to Kansas, right? Right. Stacy's gonna go play football, Sharif's gonna come with him because what else is there for us here?

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And, uh, and Kane is not really— he's not down for that.

Steve

Yeah, why would I go to Kansas? What are you doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nic

But at least his friends are trying a little bit to be like, yeah, I don't know either, but yeah, it's not this.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Nic

Um, so Kane, uh, he, he gets his new car, which is a sick Mustang 5.0, looking really good. And what he says as he's driving away in it for the first time, he's like, I had the dope ride, but I was sitting on some bullshit. I needed rims bad.

Steve

I love that.

Nic

It's one of the urgencies of this movie. It's like, goddamn it, I need those rims.

Steve

This fucking stock bullshit is not going to fly, man.

Nic

So he's like, yeah, you know, I knew exactly how to get them. I'm going to catch some dude slipping. And sure enough, he comes up. There's like a burger place drive-through. He sees the reflection. He sees this guy pull up next to him and with the rims that he wants.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And there's like a devil face. Face in the rim. There's like— I read about this after the fact, like years ago, but there's kind of like a, like an evil-looking face in the rim that like looks at him. I, I need to pause it and see exactly where.

Steve

I definitely missed that. I didn't catch that.

Nic

But I— because this is kind of where he's doing his own crimes. He's not doing revenge anymore. I'm doing stuff for my own account.

Steve

And it's not something like— yeah, yeah, there's, there's, there's, there's no— there's no driving factor behind it other than his own desire.

Nic

Except that I need I want the thing that's on the inside of my tires on my car to look different than the perfectly functional one that I have.

Steve

Correct. Exactly.

Nic

Very important. This scene, though, and I'll kick it back over. But this scene here, when he pulls up on this guy slipping at the drive-thru, first of all, the guy plays slipping the best I've ever seen in my life. I mean, it's really funny how this guy is acting, right? So Kane creeps into his passenger side of his door as he's about to order it like a fast food place. And he's like, he's like, man, what the fuck do you want from me? He's like, I'll take your rims, your wallet, and your fucking pager, and I'd like a double burger with cheese too. He's like, what? He's like, order my fucking food. So he goes through, and I think this should be the intro to the movie because I think this is the funniest, uh, it is one of the few funny scenes for sure. Yeah, so, and the way this guy goes to order, he's not panicked or anything, he's just very, uh, yeah, let me get a, uh, double burger. I said cheese fries. I said with cheese. So good. So, so Kane came up on his rims and he took this guy out.

Steve

Yep. And then the next time we see the 5-0, of course it's got those, those nice beautiful rims on it.

Nic

Yeah, we got Computer Love by Zapp and Roger playing, which is a great song.

Steve

And we're going to a cookout, I believe, right? Yeah, picnic out in the park. Uh, it looked like 2 Shorts there on the grill. I think that's who that was.

Nic

Bullshitting on the grill, they say. Lulu's over there bullshitting on the grill.

Steve

And, uh, and this is when we meet, uh, so we got everybody kind of hanging on. This is when we meet meet Charles Dutton's character. Uh, it's Sharif's dad, was the butler, right?

Nic

Mr. Mr. But yeah, yeah.

Steve

And he's, you know, obviously he's, uh, uh, you know, a literal father for, for one of the characters, but also clearly a father figure for a lot of these guys. They've known him for a while, you know, they're chatting with him, whatever. We learn a little bit later, I think he's a teacher at the school, right? So, um, but he's talking to him, and I do love there's this thing where, you know, Sharif is like— because one of them, O-Dog, maybe is smoking a joint, right? And Sharif's like, man, tell these— tell these kids What they doing? You know, Dad, tell him. And he's like, oh, I used to smoke a little weed for myself. Like, and he's just like, come on, Sharif, you can't, you can't be perfect all the time, you know, kind of thing.

Nic

He, he has the, like, the right amount of authority to come at these kids with. Like, he knows I can't be a hardliner on every single thing, you know, so I have to be allowable to this so that I can even get breakthrough to you guys in some fucking way.

Steve

These kids are killing people and selling crack. If I give them shit for smoking pot, I'm never going to talk to them ever again. That's ridiculous. So very smart sort of balance, which again, very indicative of a teacher in that environment who's got to deal with kids like that year after year.

Nic

I mean, he teaches in this neighborhood, so he's, he's had similar, if not those exact kids at some point.

Steve

Right.

Nic

So before that, real quick, Kane had met this girl in the parking lot.

Steve

Oh, that's right.

Nic

He pulled up his new 5.0 with the rims, so he knows that he can actually get this girl if he hits on her. And this chick named Ileana.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And I love that when he parts with her, he goes, take care of that body, which I've never had the, uh, I've never had the guts to say. So yeah, so Mr. Butler, um, and they're also saying he's like, uh, sits down and immediately they're like, oh yeah, bring Mr. Butler a plate, like bring him some barbecue. And we used to say this in place of like, beer me or whatever, we'd be like, bring Mr. Butler a plate, which means like, get me whatever you're getting out of the fridge.

Steve

And, uh, I do like he asked for a heavy plate, a nice size plate. That's what he put it. Yeah, nice Nice size plate. I love Charles Dutton. He's such a good actor.

Nic

He is so good. And you know, him and Bill Duke both like just hitting their shot. It's like, all right, we need 2 minutes off the bench from you at the end of the quarter while we rest our starters. And they're just draining threes from half court.

Steve

They are a pair of Andre Iguodala bringing that ring to Golden State. You know what I mean?

Nic

Like, so, so now we're back in Mr. Butler's classroom and Sharif is kind of like talking to his dad after class and Kane comes to meet them there, you know? And I like Mr. Butler giving Sharif shit. So we find out that he's a Christian and Sharif has converted to Islam and stuff, but he's very accepting of it. And he's just like, hey, like, it's not my thing, but my goal is like for you to live your life, for you to become a better man, for you to survive. And he's talking to him about like when Kane comes in, he's like, you know, you're going to move to Kansas with him because what are you going to do here?

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Like you're a Black man in America. The hunt is on and you're the prey. You know, you got one thing to do is survive.

Steve

Yeah. Yeah.

Nic

And, uh, you know, it's fucking, it's pretty powerful. He's, he's very good. I want to be, if there's something I need to learn, I would love an AI Charles S. Dutton to like pop up and, and like reiterate it for me.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

You know?

Steve

So there's an interesting thing that happens in this scene in the, in the, um, uh, classroom as well. And, and actually I had it as a note much earlier, but I wanted to call it out here cause I know it happens here too. This is one of maybe 4 or 5 scenes in the movie that do not involve, um, any visual police presence. A couple of the other ones that I know for sure happened are with O-Dog and Kane walking around their housing complex, right? And where Kane's grandparents live. It's either the sounds of a helicopter or the sounds of distant sirens. And they are in 4 or 5 scenes. Like I said, only counting the ones where there aren't visual police presence. That's in addition. But the number of times that we either just get the background noise of a helicopter or distant sirens is so good. It's such fantastic like world-building and sort of like this underlying sort of like tension or presence of like malice that's there. It's like, it's just—.

Nic

It's like a 2 Dads 1 Movie podcast. Constant sirens.

Steve

Exactly. But I love it because at no point in any of the scenes do any of the characters, not only do they not reference those sounds, they don't notice them. They do not react to them. They don't bump. They don't look up. They don't— there is nothing that anyone on screen reacts to. And yet I know I heard it every single time because it's a fucking sound of a helicopter or sirens. Like, it's hard to miss. And you know that in a movie scenario, those don't sneak in the way they sneak in on us as people drive by. Those are deliberately placed there. And so it's just— this was one of the— this was one of the times I thought it was really poignant because it's, it's Mr. Butler talking to Kane about you know, being hunted. And here are police sirens off in the distance. And it's just, it was, I thought it was really well placed here. The other major one that I noticed was that immediately following Kane, do you really want to live or die? I don't know. The next sequence of Kane and O-Dog at that point walking through this neighborhood and talking was all, all the background noise was helicopter the entire time. And so those are two spots where I noticed it and really felt like, God, this does such a good job of like ramping up the tension and sort of underlining the scene without making any of the characters even acknowledge that it's there. Yeah, great, great choice by the Hughes brothers.

Nic

Yeah, that's, that's a great, that's a great observation. And yeah, just that it's like ever-present to the point that you're just Elwood Blues living under the L train. We like go so often, I don't even know.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

So let's see, Kane and Sharif, so they have this great conversation with Mr. Butler, right? And then Kane and Sharif are kind of driving away and just chit-chatting and everything. And Sharice's like, oh, what happened to the chick you met at the barbecue? He's like, yeah, I fucked her. The way he said it, like, none of my friends ever say anything to me like that, please. Like, I— there needs to be some kind of a, yeah, like, none of this dead serious look. It's so, so creepy. Um, but they get, they get picked up by the cops, and Kane is talking about how, you know, the cops would sometimes just pull us over just to fuck with us and everything. And we get a very visceral, like, police brutality scene, kind of very similar to The Boys in the Hood. And the cop is being super racist, you know, put your hand in the hood, this hood's hot. I thought you boys like barbecue, like just saying disgusting shit.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And the cops start beating them up and basically the cops beat them up and drop them off in like the SA neighborhood, right? The Latina neighborhood, thinking that, oh, they're going to get beat up more when we drop them, even killed. And the scene where you don't know what's going to happen, I think this scene is very well done because we go straight from the cops kind of beating them in the car to these Mexican guys hanging out, working on a car, drinking 40s, whatever. And then they see them get dropped off and they say, you know, the essays were cool though, they took us to the hospital.

Steve

Yeah, these guys look straight out of To Live and Die in LA. Like, they've got that look for every different kind of guy. Yeah, that's true.

Nic

Was an NES ice hockey type lineup, dude. We had every, every single body, every style of cholo was there. It was really good.

Steve

I did love that the essays were helpful and not another source of strife for them. I wish those characters came back somewhere. I would think it would have been interesting. Probably too tied up nicely, but it would have been nice if like— I wanted more of them. I wanted more of those guys. Like, I don't know, I just like— and I guess that's just a different movie.

Nic

But like, well, it's funny, it's almost like you, you live with this mentality that fuck everyone, nothing matters, this world doesn't matter, there's no community, there's just today, there's just like what I need to do. And then you're put in like the most extreme situation of like testing that, right? If you are really in a community where nobody gives a fuck about each other, nothing matters, Those guys would have beat you up. Those guys would have robbed you. Those guys would have whatever. And then they show this like actual kindness and actual humanity towards them. But it doesn't register with Kane and O-Dog that they're like, oh, like, this is what it's all about is the actual fucking people. These guys face the same bullshit from the cops. These guys have the same bad schools. They have the same kind of shit as us. But it doesn't click there. But the movie does show us that it's like, there's the—.

Steve

You're the fucking same. You know, there is, there is a path through that is not just to avoid everything. Like, there is a path through that, that exists. It's— but, you know, it also— there are cultural differences between the Latino sort of inner-city culture in LA at this time and the Black inner-city culture.

Nic

And I'm sure fighting for resources, and, and there's not going to be enough to go around, so there's always going to be—.

Steve

And the conflict, the racism affected them differently. You know, I don't— I'm not going to speak for the racist LAPD at the time, but they probably were more interested in, you know, fucking up the day of a young Black man than of a young Latino man. I don't know for sure, but it kind of feels that way. So, you know, it's not exactly the same, but you're right, it is, it is an interesting, um, juxtaposition of like, you know, these are people with, yeah, like I said, very similar, if not exactly the same, very similar circumstances. And yet, right, there is, there is, we're shown this difference. Yeah. Um, and that is interesting. But, um, but yeah, then, uh, there's a really great little sequence with Ronnie sitting with Anthony and Anthony asking like, why did, you know, the cops beat up Kane? Did he do something wrong? And she kind of tells him like, not really, no. Like, they just— this happens, you know? And it's that conversation that I'm sure every, you know, Black mother has had to have with her son at some point. And that's horrible. And, you know, but it was very well done. It's one of Jada Pinkett's better scenes in the movie, you know, playing against off this 5-year-old. But like, she's playing this— that you can see it in her eyes and her face. That every line, every sentence she speaks, she's thinking about it as she says it, that it's, "How do I pick the right words to say this?" I have an answer, but how do I translate this to a 5-year-old that doesn't disturb him, but doesn't lie to him? He's gotta understand, right? I'm not gonna just out and out bullshit him because I need him to grow up understanding these things, but also he's 5, so I can't just say exactly what I'm thinking, you know? And I don't wanna terrify him, right? And that's an incredibly crazy difficult line to walk. And so anyway, Jada Pinkett does a great job here one of her best scenes in the movie. And she's probably, you know, of the major characters, probably the best actor in the film. But yeah, really great moment between her and Anthony. I really like that scene a lot.

Nic

Yeah, and very important. And the last thing that Anthony asks Ronnie is, "Is Kane gonna die, Mama?" Right. She's like, "No, no, Kane's not gonna die." Yeah, yeah. So we're at the hospital now where, you know, Kane's been beaten up and he is like physically beaten up but mentally defeated. The way his attitude is, he's like, like, fuck this, what's the point? I just got the shit beat out of me again. After he had kind of decided like, all right, well, maybe I'll— I just talked to Mr. Butler, maybe I'll think about possibly changing something, and then immediately gets brutalized by the cops.

Intro Clip

Yeah.

Nic

Um, but he's talking to Ronnie in the hospital, and Ronnie says, hey, uh, by the way, I got offered a job in Atlanta. Yeah. Or I got offered a job that pays, you know, a salary I can live off of.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And it's in Atlanta. And she says this through a door, which is very funny. And, uh, and Kane's just like, yeah, you know, go. Like, I'm not gonna stop you. Like, what the fuck? And then she's like, I want you to come with me. And she starts kissing him because he's been fighting this. And it seemed like Ronnie has been interested in him, he's been interested in her, but he has enough, uh, reverence slash fear of Purnell that he's like, nah, that's something we don't do, is I don't mess with his lady.

Steve

Lady.

Nic

Like, that's just like against the very limited code that we have. That's something that we don't—.

Steve

And I think even Stacy earlier in the movie had said something about it, or you, you with that? Because I'd be trying to fuck her. Like, and he's like, no, no, like, that's Purnell's girl. And he's like, yeah, he's on life with no possibility of parole, man. Like, what are you doing? Like, you know what I mean? Like, so the, the seed was planted. But yeah, he's been sticking with this honor, sort of honor code with Purnell that he wouldn't, he wouldn't go for his girl.

Nic

Yeah. Yep. Um, so now we're kind of at Zooming forward, and we're like the end of the summer, the last— the going away party because Kane and Ronnie and Anthony are going to move to Atlanta and Stacy and Sharif are going to move to Kansas. So we have kind of like a getting away, going away party at Ronnie's house. Yeah, I love the consistent reference of a 40 as just a beer.

Steve

Yeah, right. Get me a beer.

Nic

It's really funny. You know what? My mom used to work for the US Census, and she would have to go and like do the actual surveys and there would be like affiliated surveys. So you have the census every 10 years, but then they're always doing surveys about different demographics and different, you know, whatever, consumer habits and stuff.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And one of the questions they had was like, how many beers would you say you drink in a day? Like, how many alcoholic drinks do you have in a day? Parentheses, like alcoholic drink is one glass of wine, one beer, whatever.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And she said that they had to clarify, like, one beer is one 12-ounce beer. Because it's like, oh, a beer is the container that holds my beer. Like, what do you mean? It's a science.

Steve

4 Tall Boys.

Nic

Like, what do you mean? It's the vessel that the beer is inside equals 1 beer. Yeah. So I like that they were, they're just calling it beers in this.

Steve

I also was on the topic of like the, how many drinks have you had thing? It's always like 1.5 ounces of hard liquor, right? Because that's how much you would put like in a single cocktail. 4 ounces of wine, which I got to tell you as a certified sommelier, I can tell you if somebody poured me a 4-ounce glass, I would ask where the rest of it is. Yeah, you smack it with the back of your hands. That is a little too much for like, uh, like a tasting flight. Yeah, right, because that should be maybe like 2, but that is not enough to be a glass that I paid for. I need 6 to 8 ounces minimum. Yeah, dude, 4 ounces is some bullshit.

Nic

Like, um, so we're at Ronnie's house now, we have this party here, uh, Awax and Chauncey show up and they're like drunk as hell when they come up. Chauncey is starting to get a little creepy around Ronnie. He's definitely— he's like shows up and they're with women and he's just like, I wish Ronnie at? Where's Ronnie? And they're like, all right, man, chill out, chill out. Um, during this party, you know, very similar to the beginning of the film, here we've got the crew hanging out on the stoop in front, and his friends are giving him shit about, you know, leaving town and everything. And Anthony has come out of his bedroom. He was playing a little Genesis there.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And, uh, he comes out on the stoop and he's talking about, you know, the same kind of stuff that young Kane was.

Steve

This is, this is the, that was some of the bookends, the sort of like, you know, the images at the beginning and the end mimicking Um, this is the, the cycle not breaking, right? Anthony being in this environment is doing exactly to him what it did to Kane, you know, 12 years before, whatever it was. And so, yeah, so there's that element. But Ronnie comes out and it's like, gets Anthony back to his, to his room and sit and tells Kane, I gotta talk to you, like, come in and talk to me. And so she confronts him about leaving with her. They actually hadn't decided. I think it was just Ronnie going away. Uh, Sharif and Stacy are going to Kansas, Ronnie's going to Atlanta, but Kane hadn't committed to going yet. But she basically confronts him about it and he says, yeah, I'm I'll go with you. And then they make love. I found it odd. You got all those people in the house, the kid's still clearly awake. Like, I don't know, this wouldn't work for me, but hey, the two of them needed this.

Nic

So for the, for the music they used and for the way it was shot, that wasn't a quickie, you know what I'm saying? Like, you could have shown that it was a little like a little 8 Mile, Brittany Murphy style, you know, do it, do it like that. But this did look like, and it was a, it was an extended romance.

Steve

This was Kelly McGillis and Tom Cruise in Top Gun. This was like, you know, take my breath away level.

Nic

This was like— so, and I think it's funny that it cuts from there and then the guys are just kind of hanging out playing cards at the table, and Kane, you know, is sitting there and he's obviously a little, uh, conflicted because he's like, well, you know, I do really like this chick and I'm glad about that, but there is some guy in jail who's gonna be like, you know, get my wife's name out of your fucking mouth.

Steve

And not just her name, by the way.

Nic

And he's— he has this look on his face just like, what have I done? And also, I don't want anyone here to know what just happened. And then it kind of zooms out from Kane a little bit, and we see Stacy like leaning in with this look on his face, like, like, let me smell your fingers look that he has on his face. It's so fucking funny the way Stacy's just like, hey man, hey, how'd it go?

Steve

I love that character. Stacy is one of the best characters of the kind of supporting characters.

Nic

I enjoy him too.

Steve

Funny. Yeah, but then Chauncey is pushing it. Chauncey is getting too handsy with Ronnie, you know, hey, come here, like whatever. I don't remember exactly what he's saying, but she is trying to like push him off, and Kane is starting to fume. I mean, he sees it and he, you know, just like whatever. And as soon as Chauncey kind of, you know, puts his hands on Ronnie, Kane hops up.

Nic

Yeah, he says to O-Dog, he's like, dog, you strapped? He's like, you know it. Yeah, give me your gun.

Steve

Yep. And he gets a gun, he pistol whips the shit out of Chauncey and just beats his ass with the gun, like real bad, real, real Henry Hill style.

Nic

Yes, definitely. Uh, what are you looking at? You want some fuck up, right?

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, yeah. And so of course during this, you know, Anthony like comes out of his bedroom and sees it, and then we have, uh, we have Ronnie like hurry to put him back in. But it— and it's a cool— the way this is shot, it's like a cutout of the side of a house.

Steve

Very neat.

Nic

Where we even see like the interior of the, of the walls and everything.

Steve

Wes Anderson would steal this later for several of his movies.

Nic

Um, and again, it's one of those things, like we've talked about this before, when you get filmmakers who kind of have their first shot at a real budget. Yeah, there's certain things in the movie where you're like, I bet he's always wanted to do that.

Steve

He was able to spend the money. Yeah, finally made that work.

Nic

Um, yeah, you know, so this is what Anthony experiences now. Kane, who's basically his father figure for all he ever knows, is being violent towards this guy at a party in his house, just like Kane experienced at the beginning.

Steve

There. Exactly. Yeah.

Nic

Um, so Chauncey got whipped, and Chauncey is like— he's a real dude, you know? He's not a made guy, but he's a real— he's a real fucking Russian outfit guy. You don't want to mess with this guy.

Steve

He's a real Teddy KGB. He's, he's a G. I mean, he's, he's somebody on the street that, yeah, has a reputation.

Nic

And, uh, so, so then we're getting— we're getting a fucking, uh, a, uh, tag here. Yeah, because— well, indirect, because we have Chauncey's house again. We got Doc, who's, I think, think, you know, the guy who had the house party earlier, the guy with the hat on, and he is watching boxing on TV, marked it down, right? And in the background, Chauncey is sitting at the dining table like dealing with some envelopes and stuff, and he's just like, oh man, he's like, hey, you should— hey, Chauncey, come see this guy getting his ass whooped. This looks like Kane whipping your ass last night. And then Chauncey's just like, man, fuck Kane, you know, Kane's not gonna be laughing when the police get a hold of this videotape. So Chauncey is mailing the fucking surveillance tape to the cops because of, you know, his upset about getting beat up by Kane.

Steve

Which is interesting because this reminds me now, actually I hadn't clocked this when I first watched it, but I remember now that earlier in the movie, I think maybe when, um, uh, Too Short— I can't remember the character's name— Luloke or whatever, like, uh, hands the shotgun to O-Dog before they go out, Chauncey makes a comment about, man, this tape's amazing, make me a copy of this. Yes, one of the times they're watching it. Yes. And O-Dog looks like, "Mm, I don't know about that, man," like kind of thing. But clearly he did at some point, right? 'Cause there's no way O-Dog doesn't have that original on his phone, right? Chauncey has the original, O-Dog's got that. So clearly Chauncey has a copy. So O-Dog, who knows how many copies he's made for one thing, but he's clearly gotten to the point of making copies of his own felony crime.

Nic

Yeah, very, very bad move. Yeah, and O-Dog even earlier is like, "Fuck that." He's like, "I'm gonna sell these for $59.95." That's right, yeah.

Steve

Before actually, I think just before we got to this scene, scene with Chauncey sending the tape, Alina calls Kane and, uh, tells him that she's pregnant. And Kane, of course— now Kane had been told, I don't know, by Stacy or AWACS, somebody told him, oh, I know that girl, everybody's been dipping this.

Nic

Sharif said, yeah, I know a couple of brothers that done eased up in that.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

And so just how I talk about women.

Steve

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Um, so Alina says, I'm pregnant. And he's like, what the fuck you telling me for? And she's like, because it's yours. Like, how the fuck you know that? Like, you— and she's like, you're the only one I've been with. Like, you know, maybe lately. But the point is, she's not just sleeping around, and she's crying, and he's just like, fuck, you don't fucking call me, that's not mine. Like, fuck off. And he's just like, there's no way. He's like, I wore a condom, fuck you. Like, or whatever, you know. And, and so it's totally cold and it's just like not having it. And then we, we cut away, and that's when we get to Chauncey sending in the tape. Um, but yeah, then it's, uh, I think next is we're in jail, we're visiting Purnell, right?

Nic

So we're gonna go visit Purnell, and, uh, you know, Kane has not been to visit Purnell Yeah, that's right. Purnell would have been in jail for what, 5, 6 years if he went when she was pregnant with Anthony?

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

And, uh, and they go in there and first Ronnie's on there with Purnell and she plays this very well of just being like, I have to be here and I am so pissed that I even have to fucking see you right now, you know? So Ronnie's got to tell him, yeah, we're moving to Atlanta, Kane's coming with you, you know, Kane's coming with me, I'm taking your kid and everything. Um, but she can't even make eye contact because I can't do Can you imagine someone through— and I'm sure Purnell, he seems like he's had time to reflect or whatever, but sure, through his own fucking stupidity, got himself in this situation where she's a single mom all of a sudden, you know?

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And, and who knows how he was to her and all that stuff. So there's a lot of like behind that, but she doesn't want to look at him. He ends up talking to Kane for a minute, and you know, he's telling Kane, he's like, you know, your letters got me through here at the beginning, and is really like a good kind of tender moment between 2 guys who aren't allowed to express their feelings.

Steve

Yeah, yeah. No, it's very interesting. And he gives— and he also gives Kane, I think most importantly, the green light to go live your life. And if that means living it with Ronnie and with Anthony, please take care of them, that's fine. Like, basically, you're not coming out. I'm not leaving here. And I don't— and even if I did at this point, like, Ronnie wouldn't want anything to do with me anyway. So just, it's all good, man. Yeah. Like, I know you'll take care of her kind of thing, which is like, you know, just gives him that, that sort of, okay, that's one less thing I gotta worry about. In a life full of fucking threats and things to worry about, this is not one of those things. I can go ahead and feel comfortable about this decision. So it helps solidify for Kane, like, I'm moving to Atlanta. I'm moving to Atlanta with Ronnie and Anthony. I'm gonna raise Anthony like my own son. Like, he's got a plan now. There is this, there is a future literally right around the corner for him. Just a day or two away, they're gonna move to Atlanta.

Nic

So couple days, dude, just lay low. Keep your head down, you know? Keep your eyes front and you'll be good. So I guess we may as well talk about it since it was on film. But, uh, so, so yeah, now we're back, um, and Kane, he pulls back up to his house, right? He gets out and he's like putting his wheel locks on or something, messing with his rims. And up behind him we see like a gun go to his head and we go, hey, get up off the car!

Steve

That's right.

Nic

And he turns around and it's O-Dog fucking with him, which is like, oh, you—.

Steve

It's not funny.

Nic

Really gonna do that? What if I had quick reflexes? What if I had like a boot gun or something to whip out. So, so they're kind of chit-chatting and walking back towards his grandparents' house, and then we get a guy who approaches them who's like, hey, uh, which one of you is Kane?

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

And they're like, you know, who are you?

Steve

Depends on who's asking. Yeah, I mean, that thing is like, I would never answer that question. Some rando walks up to you in that neighborhood, it's like, hey, which one of you so-and-so? Like, fuck you, man.

Nic

Like, and this guy, this guy's— this guy's really trying to make fetch happen with pot Yeah, you know, he's, he's really, he's really leaning hard into partner, you know. So I'm Alina's cousin partner. She don't like the way you've been dogging her, and I don't either. He's like, hey man, I don't think you really know me, you know.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And he's like, we're supposed to fight over a bitch. He's like, you better watch who you be calling a bitch. And then Kane's like, yeah, you better watch who you be. And then just starts, yeah, destroying him. I mean, beating him up, stomping him. De Niro, uh, on Billy Batts style, you know, kicking him and everything. Uh, and then his grandfather comes out immediately, sees this, like, Kane, Kane, get in the house! Pulls him away. And the grandparents have had enough. That's it, you know, this is it. I can't have you in my house one more night. Yeah, you're done. He's like, well, I was gonna move to Atlanta with Ronnie in like a couple weeks.

Steve

They can have a couple days.

Nic

Yeah, can I just stay here till then? They're like, nope, get out of here. Like, I really hope you get your shit together, but I'm officially done with it. Which, very fair from the grandparents' perspective.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

I mean, uh, they already knew some of the stuff that he was saying. Whatever else they're hearing, well, you forget about them needing to hear stuff directly from him. There has to be similar types of grandparents that live in that complex and people that are out talking and everything. They're retired, they're not out going to work, so they know what's going on. They probably know a lot about it.

Steve

And there's going to be the things that happened that they know about, there's going to be rumors that they don't— neither did or didn't have, but they can't be sure about. So it's going to be, you know, and it's— yeah, people talk and people, you know, those kind of things just get spread around and they know who his best friend is, right?

Nic

And they know what his best friend has done. So why would you not associate?

Steve

At this point, if you think that the grandparents have not heard that there is a tape of O-Dog killing somebody, they've at least heard that rumor, you know what I mean? There's no way that this is getting spread around so much and that hasn't come back to them in at least somebody talking after church one day or something about like, did you hear what happened? There's the boy showing this tape around.

Nic

Like, you know, that tape is like the Wayne's World going on. It's like their version of public access.

Steve

Yeah, it's real bad.

Nic

Um, so the grandparents kick him out, and now we kind kind of fast forward here and we're on moving day and we're packing up the car. Yeah, sick Ford Aerostar, by the way. Nice looking, uh, nice shape of a van there. Um, so we're packing up the car, the guys are there, Sharif's there, Stacy's there, O-Dog's there, they're helping Ronnie and Anthony. And, um, we get kind of a flash away to Ilina's cousin who's leaving the house while Ilina's like, please, please, you don't have to do this. And he's like, I'm gonna handle this guy for you.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

And does a goofy-ass fucking jog to the car where he's, he's doing the look both ways to cross the street like once every 0.5 seconds as he jogs to the car.

Steve

It's not exactly the same, but it reminded me of DJ Poo running away in Friday.

Nic

I swear, they're spiritually related, those two, those two characters. Um, so Ileana's cousin now is in the car, and him and his crew, and they're all getting ready for a drive-by. Again, one of every different type of guy. It did a good job of mixing up looks and everything. But they got Uzis, they got Jerry curls, they got handkerchiefs, they got everything here. And, um, and they're heading towards the house as, you know, Kane and everyone's loading up. Ah, 3 more boxes and we're out of the hood forever. Everything's gonna be great.

Steve

Yeah, yeah. And this is the scene then that, you know, uh, obviously this, this was also kind of like spoofed very directly in, in Don't Be a Menace. It's, it's a scene that, not having seen this movie, I knew exactly what was coming and like kind of the details of it just because it's, it has as it moved beyond this movie into the zeitgeist. But basically it's a series of shots of loading the van, talking about moving, the car coming down the street, putting some more stuff in the van, talking to Anthony, the car coming down the street. Now Anthony's on his bike and his little big wheel driving away and the car's coming down the street. And that is when we see, you know, they're not close enough and the drive-by basically begins. And it's not even necessarily a drive-by. They stop for quite a while and are just really emptying these clips into people. People. Sharif takes it first and it's just gone. I mean, like, no chance. Yeah, he probably takes 20, 30 bullets. Um, Kane, to his credit, immediately sees where Anthony is in all this and tries to run to him as O-Dog gets his gun out, is running the other direction and firing at the assailants. Yep. But really, I don't think hits anybody. I don't think anybody gets—.

Nic

No, it's like aimless shooting.

Steve

You're just trying to lay cover for me, right? Yeah. But, uh, Kane, you know, I know it's— God, so here's the— what I wasn't sure about, I was not sure, sure, because I hadn't seeing it, I was like, fuck, do they actually let Anthony live through this, or does Anthony have to die to make the point here? I don't think that's true, but, but my worry was that as Kane runs to Anthony, that he will be drawing fire to— yeah, right, that was concerning to me. Um, thankfully they, they did have Kane sort of covering Anthony. So as they drive off, Ronnie and Stacy come running back out of the house, and Stacy goes over to Sharif, and then Ronnie runs up, you know, Anthony, Anthony, Anthony, or whatever, and Kane is kind of on top of him. She's able to pull him off, or maybe Stacy does, whatever. But like, the point is that Anthony is fine. Anthony, Anthony gets up, he hasn't been hit, whatever. So Ronnie and Anthony are okay, but Kane, again, like, there's no— just like Sharif, there's no coming back from this. This is not a shot to the shoulder.

Nic

And this is a gruesome— yeah, scene. I mean, the, the blood, everything coming out of his mouth, it's really, really intense.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Uh, and you know, we get really like just kind of a heartbeat, you know, flashing in and out. And, uh, and Kane's voiceover at the end here, and he's like, you know, my, my grandpa— my grandfather once asked me if I care whether I live or die. I do, but now it's too late.

Steve

And his voice is cracking at the end there. It's really, really great. Yeah, uh, by the actor. And, and yeah, just very, very heartbreaking. It was a tragic, tragic ending.

Nic

Yeah, yeah, no, uh, no happy— no, no happy, uh, post-credits scene in this one. Yeah, so that's it. So that's it. And then we go to the song Straight Up Menace by MC8 in the credits, and, uh, that is it. That is Menace II Society.

Steve

It's wild. Yeah, hell of a hell of a picture. And, and, you know, yeah, very interesting. So Nick, you brought this to the table. Why don't you, uh, give us your thoughts?

Nic

Yeah, uh, it was interesting to kind of talk through this with somebody else because I'd only watched it with like the guys I've been watching it with for the last 20 years.

Steve

Right, right.

Nic

Um, it is like, you know, deeper than I give it credit for in my head because I'm just thinking of it it is this goofy collection of characters that I— yeah, like, but it is like important in its message. I mean, it is dark. It's not gonna be for everybody, uh, it's not a feel-good movie, but—.

Steve

Right—.

Nic

It's an important thing to communicate where it's like, we're not trying to get these guys to change their lives. We're not trying to get them to improve their lives. The base level is, can we get these guys to just give fuck if they're alive or dead, right? Like, can we get the, the most basic level of like human existence— can we get them to care about that, right? And showing like what a struggle that is and the things that work against that.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And I think it's great. I love the Hughes brothers. I really like some of their subsequent movies. Their performances in this, I think— Laurence Tate, I really like him.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And again, it's like he's not supposed to be a psycho in this fun kind of Max Cady psycho kind of way. He's supposed to be a psycho in a way where you're just like, I can't even, like, I can't even predict what you're gonna do.

Steve

Like, he's the Black Patrick Bateman. Like, there's an element of just like everything is just under the surface where it is in totality his personality. But on top of it, you can't tell when it's gonna come out or when it's gonna go. It just, it just, it just gets triggered. Yeah. And I feel like the Bateman character, who is like more cartoonish in some ways as a villain, is still kind of in the same ballpark as O-Dog.

Nic

But Bateman has to at least exist in like a normal world.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

You know, he has to go to work. He has to have always have a mask. It's like there's no requirement. Like, you're living there, you're just in this fucking soup of misery. Like, you don't have to have a job, you don't have to— it doesn't mention anything about him going to school. No, any of that shit. Yeah, uh, crazy. So yeah, Menace II Society, really fun. I like the soundtrack choices as well. I think that, um, the music is very well utilized, like the rap songs that they use, but also the Computer Love and Al Green song and stuff. I think is effective, the music and the flashback scenes. Um, this is a great movie. I would recommend this, uh, to anyone, and I think it's a great vision of that time. I'm gonna give Menace II Society a 4 out of 5.

Steve

Nice, very cool. Um, yeah, so this was my first time watching Menace II Society, and like I said, I was familiar with some of the other, uh, pieces in sort of this, this subgenre of drama movies. Um, like Boyz n the Hood and Higher Learning— those are probably the first two that I really remember, like, feeling connected to in some ways. Um, And I think that Menace II Society hits on a lot of points for me. There are other parts where it maybe doesn't kind of like hold up as well. I think overall the acting of the ensemble is not quite as high as like in Boyz n the Hood. You know, I think that, and or in Higher Learning. I mean, those are just the two that I most associate, you know, from my knowledge of this era. And so there is, there is a sort of like a loss there in some ways. And the middle of this movie lags for me. There's definitely like, I found the middle kind of 30 to 45 minutes a little boring. The opening's great. You know, getting us to, to who is Kane up through Harold's murder. That's all fantastic. And then obviously the ending, everything from Alina saying, I'm pregnant all the way through to the end is great. But in between those two things, there's kind of, there's a lot of just like, hey, why does it suck so bad here? Hey, you should move. No, I don't want to. No, no, you should move. No, I don't want to. Hey. And it just, there's not a lot that happens in the middle of the movie. So that to me is a bit of an issue just on like a, as a film, I guess. So, but I did enjoy it. I do think it feels like an important movie. 2 Dads 1 Movie. Obviously it's had massive impact culturally over the years, but I'm about a 3.5 out of 5 on Menace II Society. I think that's where I'm comfortable, like, landing. So that makes us a 7.5 out of 10 for Menace II Society from the Hughes brothers. That's the rating from the 2 Dads.

Nic

All right. Well, I think we're in line with IMDb and everything there. So yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense.

Steve

Yeah. Okay. So that leads us to 1994 and that's my pick.

Nic

So what do we get, Steve?

Steve

Once again, I'm going to give us a little more tonal whiplash, right? We watched Wayne's World last week. Now we're Menace II Society this week. Next week, we're going to kind of whip back the other direction in a way. There is a filmmaker who I think is probably at this point more well known for his work in the early 2000s than in the '90s, but had 4 fantastic films, in my opinion, in the '90s and became incredibly influential to me on a few levels. One, he's a hockey fan. Hockey fan, and I didn't know that there were a lot of cool hockey fans back then, and I grew up loving hockey. Uh, he's a fat guy, or was, uh, was a fat guy, isn't so much anymore, and I have always been a fat guy. So there's that fantastic erudite writing, uh, screenwriting, whatever, and just this, the, the ultimate sort of DIY attitude, more so than Robert Rodriguez, more so than Quentin Tarantino. Um, we are going to watch the 1994 comedy Clerks, written and directed by Kevin Smith. I am a huge Kevin Kevin Smith fan. I have met Kevin Smith once in my life and I hold it dear. I, you know, really looked up to him. I dressed as Silent Bob for more than one Halloween in college because I had the jacket and it just sort of fit the jacket and the beard. And yeah, so I'm a big fan of Clerks. I've seen it at least a dozen times. It's not my favorite of Smith's movies. It's not my favorite of Smith's movies from the '90s, but it's the first one. And I feel like getting the 1994, there's a obviously lots of good choices I could have made for '94, but I feel like this is a good time to just like, you know, kind of pop the seal on this part of my movie fandom. All right, give us our first Kevin Smith joint. Okay, any history with Clerks?

Nic

Yeah, I think I've seen Clerks one time in high school, so yeah, I'm looking forward to checking this one out, and I know it's, it's very impactful, and we'll see how it holds up.

Steve

Absolutely. All right, that's a wrap. So if you like what you hear, please consider heading over to Apple or Spotify and leaving us a 5-star review. It helps new folks find the show. Be sure to check out our website at twodads1movie.com. That's the number 2 and the number 1. There you can explore the movies we've covered, sign up for our newsletter, The Rewind, and even get sneak previews of upcoming episodes. We'd also love it if you followed us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky at 2 Dads 1 Movie. Once again, this has been Menace II Society, another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week.

Nic

Thanks everyone.