Transcript

Somerset (Intro Clip)

This was found on the wall behind the refrigerator, the obesity murder scene.

Captain (Intro Clip)

Long is the way and hard that out of hell leads up to light.

Somerset (Intro Clip)

It's from Milton, Paradise Lost.

Captain (Intro Clip)

All right, I'm confused.

Somerset (Intro Clip)

It means that this is beginning. This was found behind the same refrigerator, written in grease. There are 7 deadly sins, Captain. Gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, pride, lust, and envy. 7. Hold on.

Captain (Intro Clip)

That's not even my desk.

Somerset (Intro Clip)

You can expect 5 more of these. It's.

Not Steve

2 Dads 1 Movie, Shocktoberfest, a celebration of the spookiest movies of the '80s and '90s. Now here are your hosts, Scary Steve Paulo and Nightmare Nic Briana.

Steve

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 Dads, 1 Movie. I'm Steve. And I'm Nic. And today we continue our march through Shocktoberfest with— it's not a horror movie, but it's scary as fuck in so many ways.

Nic

Yes, it's horrifying.

Steve

It is horrifying. That's a good point. It is not a horror movie, but it is a horrifying movie. 1995'S Se7en. Se7en. Se7en. Se7en. I just love the, like, uh, uh, the sort of, uh, stylized version of the title with the 7 in the middle.

Nic

It's so weird, right? Because, like, your brain makes the connection when you look at that. You're like, that— I read that as 7 in my head. But then trying to say it out loud, it's fucking crazy.

Steve

It doesn't make any sense at all. Um, yeah, so we were talking about Se7en. Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, Kevin Spacey, Gwyneth Paltrow. Uh, my favorite Gwyneth Paltrow movie, uh, for reasons obvious, at the end. Um, so I brought this one to the table. Uh, basically, this is one of those movies I did I did not see it when it came out. It came out in '95. We were like 15 or whatever. Yeah. It's not something I saw in the theater or anything. I saw this in college. I spent a little bit of time as a film major, and that was where people would start, you know, people started talking about filmmakers as much as or more than films. And it was one of those things where I didn't, I was not really aware of who David Fincher was. And it was like, oh my God, have you seen Se7en? No. Oh my God, you've gotta, you know, this is a great introduction to Fincher and it's such a cool movie. And I totally agree, it actually is. Like, this is an incredibly stylized movie. This is very cool in that sense, I think. So, but, but yeah. And then, you know, I just saw it and kind of loved it. But it's also not a movie that I've like rewatched a ton because it is so heavy and dark and whatnot. So, but I think it's a good movie. I was really happy to kind of bring it to the Shocktoberfest table and say, you know, maybe continuing our tradition of like, it's not traditionally a horror movie, but it definitely fits the like spooky theme of the month. So yeah. What about you, Nic? What's your history with Se7en?

Nic

Um, I think I saw it probably around the same time. Definitely not a theater one, but the word kind of got around, right? Maybe by the time we were seniors or so in high school, you'd have people being like, oh, do you see this? This was fucked up. Especially those lucky households that had like HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, and might have, uh, dubbed a copy, uh, VHS for themselves. Um, but I did see this, and I probably saw it a couple times. And yeah, I mean, it's a movie that I have not revisited a lot over the years, but— Yeah. Certain things when I was watching it, I was like, I think about that all the time. I think about that all the time. So there's a couple things that really just like stuck in my head from this film, and it's probably different for every person. And then some things where I'm like, how did this stick in my head and I didn't even remember this, right? Um, but yeah, I mean, the performances in this, it has so many people, uh, that we love. Oh yeah, Gwyneth Paltrow and Kevin Spacey. Uh,.

Steve

Those two in particular, just absolute heroes of mine. I don't know about you, but Yeah, just a real pinnacle of humanity.

Nic

But yeah, this was a movie, and it was like a cool movie, like you said, at the time, which was very important, especially late '90s, early 2000s, just to watch something where you felt like it understood the industrial kind of feel of it and everything like that. So, uh, yeah, this was one that I definitely, uh, have a lot of memories of, and I'm very excited, uh, that I got to revisit and we're chatting today. So yeah.

Steve

I think you're absolutely right. There are pieces of this movie that, that, that stuck with everyone who watched it and, and, and there are probably differences between each viewer and kind of like, oh, this stuck with me, that stuck with me. I have a feeling the hanging pine tree air fresheners, though, kind of stuck with everybody. It feels.

Nic

Like that. I think about and I reference that probably like every couple months. Like if I'm trying to refer to like masking a bad smell, I'll say hang up 1,000 air fresheners like in Se7en.

Steve

It's in a movie full of shocking, crazy imagery. That image, for some reason, I feel like sticks with people more than anything else, which is like kind of wild when you, when you remember something.

Nic

For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve

All right, let's jump into the facts on the movie. Se7en. The movie Seven was released on September 22nd, 1995 with a well-deserved R rating and a hard R over here. Running time of 127 minutes. It was directed by David Fincher and written by Andrew Kevin Walker. It stars Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, and Kevin Spacey, and Gwyneth Paltrow. Scores on Rotten Tomatoes: this received 84% fresh from reviewers. On IMDb: an 8.7. Which puts it as the number 20 highest rated film on IMDb.

Nic

Amazing.

Steve

Really, really highly regarded. Respect it. Yeah.

Nic

And then, and is this our highest, or was Silence of the Lambs a little higher?

Steve

No, Goodfellas. Goodfellas I think is like a top 10, and Silence of the Lambs is right around 10th. Gotcha. Those two are very high as well. Uh, Goodfellas might even be a top 5. It's definitely one of the highest ones. Uh, Siskel and Ebert, 2 thumbs up. Not really a surprise there. Tons of awards activity, a lot of nominations, more nominations than wins, but I think that's fairly common. But It did get nominated for an Oscar in '96 for film editing, didn't win. It won a couple of Saturn Awards in '96. It won for writing and for best makeup. It was also nominated for best action-adventure film. Morgan Freeman was nominated for best actor, and Paltrow was nominated for best supporting actress. Fincher was nominated for best director, and Howard Shore was nominated for best music. So didn't win a ton of those Saturn Awards, but certainly was nominated all over.

Nic

Nice.

Steve

In '96 at the BAFTAs, it was nominated for best writing. At '96 NAACP Image Awards, it was nominated— Freeman was nominated for his role here for lead actor. Actor. Neither of those were wins.

Nic

Surprised Paltrow wasn't nominated.

Steve

Yeah, at the Image Awards, it seems like really— yeah. Anyway, uh, '96 MTV Movie Awards, they— it won Best Movie, period. Okay. All right. Most Desirable Male, Brad Pitt, which we actually discussed in one of our—.

Nic

Yeah, that's right.

Steve

Yeah, like, I think it was between him and like Nic Cage maybe or something. I don't know, it was something weird, but like,.

Nic

Yeah,.

Steve

That Brad—.

Nic

Yeah, we were talking about how this is the least sexy movie.

Steve

I mean, Brad Pitt.

Nic

Looks fucking.

Steve

Fantastic in.

Nic

It, but it is funny to be like.

Steve

But 1995 Brad Pitt would've looked fantastic wearing a garbage bag.

Nic

He could've made a movie called The Diarrhea Man where he gets made out of diarrhea for some reason and everyone would love it.

Steve

He could've been in The Fly.

Nic

Yeah, no shit, yeah.

Steve

Also nominated was Kevin Spacey for best— oh no, the winner also. Kevin Spacey won for best villain. Oh, okay. And then Freeman and Pitt were nominated for best onscreen duo, did not win. And then at the 1996 Fangoria Chainsaw Awards, It won Best Wide Release Film, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor for Kevin Spacey, and it was nominated for Best Soundtrack. So you had another nomination for Howard Shore there. On a $33 million budget, it pulled in $327 million at the box office, almost 10 times what it cost. For a movie this hard R, that is crazy impressive.

Nic

I know, because it— yeah, I mean, that means people are coming back again to see it.

Steve

Or the word of mouth gets out and it's not dissuading anyone. It's quite the opposite. It's bringing them in.

Nic

I love that when the MTV Movie Awards have like a real serious actor there, you know, the idea of like, uh, like Coolio and fucking Dan Cortez handing out an award to Morgan Freeman, or not, or naming Morgan Freeman and not giving him an award.

Steve

And the winner goes to— the winner for Best Actor, Carrot Top and Chairman of the Board.

Nic

Oh, he, he hit a shot from the 50-point Best Actor, uh, Rockin' Jocks.

Steve

That was the bonus there. It was with the golden ball. So it was— all right, all right, let's jump into Se7en. Uh, first off, uh, we get kind of a cold open. Yeah. Uh, which is fantastic. Uh, the very first thing we see, I feel like, is Morgan Freeman's switchblade. Yeah, really, it's like right away, boom, this man carries a switchblade.

Nic

I think the switchblade should have been nominated for something.

Steve

Best supporting actor for sure. More life than Gwyneth Paltrow had in her. Uh,.

Nic

Yeah, we get to see Morgan Freeman's like daily carry. Yeah, yeah, getting ready to be a cop for the day.

Steve

Yep.

Nic

Uh, which I, which I really like. And his apartment is such like a— it's like the hardened cop who's like, this world is too— is too tough. Like, I can't partner up. I can't even have like shit on the wall. Like, his place is so bleak and he has like a metronome that he sleeps to.

Steve

That to me is the wildest fucking thing. Yeah. That your like white noise machine sort of like help you sleep thing as a metronome is psychotic. Like a constant perfect tick-tock. Like, no thank you. That sounds awful. I will say this is— there's 2 things I want to compare this apartment to. One is we'll get in it later. When, when we do get to the villain's apartment, you should notice how absolutely starkly opposite they are from each other, right? It's like the villain's apartment is like covered in stuff. We'll get to that later. This is incredibly sparse. I guess it's very Spartan. Um, it's also so funny how it's very different from that trope of like the cop that goes his own way. Yes. Like Somerset is so by the book that this is like very, very specifically like a by-the-book cop's apartment. Just one, like you said, who has like no— you know, has not allowed himself ties of any emotional sense to anything because the world is so Fucked, right? Like, that's sort of his attitude. Um, also really quick, I just want to say, like, because we very quickly meet, uh, because he got— they go to a, uh, he goes to a, uh, crime scene and we meet his new partner, right? Or maybe it's at the station. But, um, the one thing I want to mention is these names: William Somerset and David Mills. There is something about, like, I, I mention it too often, but, you know, every once in a while I dabble writing a little bit of screenplays and stuff, and naming people is really hard.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And coming up with character names that both, like, tell you something about them without being like an on-the-nose sort of joke about it is difficult. But to call the like educated, you know, conspiracy theorist, sort of the guy who knows all the books and all the kind of lore behind things, William Somerset. Like, it's so, you know, it's got gravitas, that name, right? And then like the regular Joe cop is David Mills. Yeah.

Nic

I love— That's Dave Mills.

Steve

That's Dave. That's old Dave. That's old Dave Mills. I love that juxtaposition. And it's one of the many things I'll mention over the course of this episode about how good the screenplay is. But it's just— I just love that. The naming of these characters tells us so much about them in, in so few words. Somerset and Mills. Yeah, yeah. They sound like it's either a wine cooler or a law firm. Either way, like, it.

Nic

Works. And, uh, and does Mills— Mills knows at this point he's there to replace Somerset.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

Somerset— They're partnering up for a little bit for Somerset's last week or something like that.

Steve

They make it clear that Somerset's retiring in 7 days. Mills is here to sort of like get whatever handoff there is for his beat. But Mills is gonna be the new Somerset, the new sort of main detective in homicide, I guess, for this particular precinct. Uh, we should mention this city is never named. Uh, it's clearly ref— it's clearly— it's like.

Nic

Gotham City type, just like a shittier New York without any of the cool shit.

Steve

Yeah, basically. There's nothing specifically New York to it. It rains the entire time until the very end of the movie, and anytime you see like police this or a badge or anything, it just says police. Yeah, but we do at one point see them leave town and it says like 8 million population or something, so it's like, okay, well, that's clearly New York City. But yeah, but it is not technically named. But yeah, Somerset's retiring, Mills has taken over for him, and Mills is like itching to get, to get rolling, basically.

Nic

Yeah. Uh, and they— when they first show up, uh, at this crime scene, I think it's a— is a murder-suicide or a double murder.

Steve

They don't know. No, this is 2 people dead. No, there's just one person dead because this is the fat guy with his face in the spaghetti. And they're kind of like—.

Nic

I thought before the credits Somerset goes to a scene.

Steve

Oh, you're right. Oh, I'm sorry.

Nic

Where there's 2 adults that are dead, right? And, and I mean, the reason I bring this up is it says at least something about his character where one of the other detectives is there and Somerset's like did the kids see this happen? And the guy's like, why the fuck would you ask me that? Who gives a shit?

Steve

You know, you go ask some questions, Somerset.

Nic

It's the most like normal human question that you would have, and everyone's so hardened by like the grimness of this city that he's like, why are you ruining my breakfast?

Steve

Also, why are you asking questions, detective, is sort of a weird— like, that is sort of the point of the detective role, is to ask questions and discover Hey, chauffeur, quit.

Nic

Driving that limo! What the fuck do you think you're doing?

Steve

Where you going with that wrench, plumber? Anyway, but yes, you're right, I did forget about that. That's where he and Mills first meet.

Nic

So they first meet each other there, and then we kind of go pretty quickly to the, to the credit sequence, which is fantastic. It's fucking cool. And you know, I watched— since I hadn't seen this in a long time, I watched it twice. I like to do this if I'm not fresh on a movie, like do one, like just experience it, and then watch it again with notes. But watching this the second time, I realized like, oh, this is like, you know, the notes and the things that the, that the villain is leaving.

Steve

Yeah, yeah. And he— it shows him all kinds of cool shit. There's weird cool shit in this that I love. First of all, we do see him slicing his fingernail— fingerprints off, right? It's an important piece. Um, the way he sews pieces of paper together, like, for some reason is the creepiest thing in the world.

Nic

It's like silent— it's like Buffalo Bill. I mean, it looks like it. Yeah, they— you're exactly right. The normal shit, like the normal, like, desk work, cutting and pasting. Yeah, he's making a collage, basically.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Is made to look so sinister and gross in this, even though there isn't really that much actual disturbing imagery. No. Yeah, but the music and the way it's cut.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And everything, it's just— it fucking creeps you out.

Steve

It's the music we should mention. It's a remix of Closer by Nine Inch Nails that Trent Reznor did specifically for this soundtrack. And it's, you know, it's Fincher's style, right? The kind of the way things jump and bounce around in the frame is like very Fincher. And yeah, the combination of the music, I mean, this is these two, Reznor and Fincher would go on to do a ton of work together, obviously, as a very, very, very qualified and sort of accomplished duo. But this, I think, was the first time that they ever worked together at all. Just, just Reznor doing this, this intro song. But it fits so well. And it's, and it's not even that. I mean, you— I was a big Nine Inch Nails fan in the mid-'90s. So like, you know, you can recognize the tune to this, that it's closer and there's a couple lyrics in it, but like, it really almost sounds like a completely new song because it's so moody and sort of— Yeah. Atmospheric. It's—.

Nic

I do wish that it stayed instrumental because the Bring Me Right Closer to God right at the end of the credits, it's like, it's a little.

Steve

On the nose.

Nic

I would— that's a little— that's a symptom of 1995-itis, which I can't blame the movie for. That's when it took place.

Steve

Exactly. Um, so yeah,.

Nic

Okay, so, uh, we've got— we got Mills and his wife. Yes, the Gwyneth Paltrow character. And they're kind of waking up, and it's kind of made clear to us they're new to the city. They just relocated here from somewhere probably more rural.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

And she doesn't like— she's not liking it.

Steve

So she's not loving it. Yeah, it's, uh, I think we— she at some point, some conversation, she says something about moving from upstate. So again, sort of a New York reference. But yeah, the idea of they were someplace quieter for sure and, and calmer,.

Nic

Right? And there was noise outside. Yeah, I think she was like, I thought we left the tractor pulls and stuff. That's right.

Steve

Yeah, exactly.

Nic

Um, they, uh— we get to see one of our favorite things on, uh, 2 Dads 1 Movie is it's raining outside, there's a lot of cops outside, they got their hat bags.

Steve

Oh, the hat bags.

Nic

This is a good hat bag movie. It is. Love see a hat bag. It gets a half a point just for that.

Steve

Respect to, uh, Mills and Somerset for never bothering with a hat bag.

Nic

No hats, no hat bags. I think Brad Pitt had a clause in his contract that his hair, his beautiful hair, could not be covered up in any way.

Steve

Yeah. So we get, we get to the first sort of victim of our, of our, the real storyline here, right? So they, they show up at this place, they're told this man, you know, is he dead? He's like, well, I didn't touch him. So you didn't check vitals? Like, Mills is kind of like, what are you doing? How are you not doing your job? You don't check vitals? He's like, look, he's face down in spaghetti sauce, and he's shit and pissed himself. So it's a— if he's not dead, like, give me a break, pal, right? Whatever. So they go in, and first of all, you see that the floor is basically moving like it's the fucking temple, like it's Raiders of the Lost Ark and they found the Covenant, and it's all the floors moving. It's all snakes, except it's all roaches, just everywhere. There's roaches everywhere. Uh, and they're looking around and they see things like, you know, the cupboards are stocked with these cans of tomato sauce, and—.

Nic

Which are all faced in a very Sleeping with the Enemy way.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

They're all perfectly arranged.

Steve

Perfectly faced out, really creepy. But yeah, this man is— he's got like, it looked like barbed wire wrapping his feet and hands together under the table, and then his— yeah, drowned essentially in the, in the, the soup or whatever the sauce it looks like initially.

Nic

Yeah, and this is, this is a hugely obese person. I mean, this is probably a 500-pound person. Yeah, like very, you know, uh, huge. One thing is, uh, you know, in like the, the CSI-type shows where they'll put like the VapoRub on their lip or whatever, Which I hear that the cops don't do that in real life, you know, but I'm so used to seeing that. So when they walked in here, we were like, no mask? You're not covering your mouth? Like, the smell. But it didn't even matter how the actors were reacting to it because you can tell just from the visuals that it fucking stunk in there. And it was just, oh, so grim, right? So, and there's like a bucket underneath the table that this guy is like passed out at or dead. And, uh, you know, for some reason Mills decides to like give way too close to take a look.

Steve

It's full of puke. And so he almost throws up and it's like, It's just the whole thing's gross. And in, uh, it looked like maybe in shit on the wall, or I don't think it was blood, but like it's written the word gluttony.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Right? It's, uh, it's on the wall, I think, in this one. Um, is it the wall? No, the floor is the greed one. Yeah, yeah, it's on the wall. And, and it's just so, you know, they don't— it's like they're not getting it yet. But Somerset's pretty immediately suspicious that this is not something that's like gonna be isolated.

Nic

Right.

Steve

Right. So he, he sends Mills out to go question neighbors. Absolutely.

Nic

And kind of in a dismissive way. Yeah, like, hey, go. 'Cause he's like, I don't respect you. Like, I've already had my coffee, otherwise I'd ask you to get me some coffee. Here's a thing to keep you busy. Like, get out of here.

Steve

Yeah. So,.

Nic

Because there was a third cop there too, right? And it seemed like Somerset was like, that was a dude he knew.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nic

And, uh, Mills is like, get out of here, rookie. Even though Mills isn't a rookie, but they're treating him like that.

Steve

Yeah, for sure.

Nic

Um, yeah, and what they, what they kind of discover as they're looking at the body is that there's like the impression, uh, from the, from the barrel of a gun, like on his, the side of his head, in a way that they're like, Okay, somebody was forcing him to do this.

Steve

Yeah. And, and it turns out the way he actually died was that he was force-fed, force-fed, force-fed. His internal— like, his stomach popped inside him, and then he was kicked in, like, the back or something, and that actually made his entire torso burst open. Like, he's got this— the most ridiculous-sounding kind of way to die. Yeah, it's horrific. Uh, but that's essentially what they find out at the, at the coroner when the guy's going through stuff.

Nic

Right, right. Yeah. And the, the Man, I mean, the corner. Oh, it's crazy. Yeah, so he ate until he died. He had the gun to his head. And, uh, now they're talking to the chief, right? Right. Played by R.

Steve

Lee Ermey. Love him.

Nic

He only plays— I mean, military police chief, sergeant. There's never a movie where it's like— like, he wasn't in the running to play Harvey Milk, you know? He's not that kind of—.

Steve

He aged out by then. It was, uh, it was more like you wouldn't have seen— you wouldn't have seen him even in like Meet the Parents. Like, really, that's not gonna be R. Lee Ermey.

Nic

Yeah, yeah.

Steve

CIA's too cerebral. Like,.

Nic

Um, but like Somerset is such a vet that he's talking serial killer immediately.

Steve

Immediately,.

Nic

Yeah. And like, to his credit, like, this is a city that he's been immersed in. He's been doing this forever. He's like, no one-time person is doing some shit like this.

Steve

This is clearly not a random act of violence. This is incredibly planned. There's too much method put into it. Yeah, yeah. So it's— so the idea that there's more coming is like pretty reasonable, although Mills is immediately like, oh, you're jumping to conclusions, you know, and whatever, right?

Nic

And Somerset's like, I'm retiring in a week. Yeah, I don't want anything to do with this shit. This is not gonna be resolved before I retire.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they keep— they're— so yeah, they take him off of it. They put Mills onto the fat— oh no, no, no, I'm sorry. That's right. They leave Somerset— Captain leaves Somerset on the fat guy, the dead fat guy, puts Mills onto something else. So he splits them up. Yeah, but what he puts Mills onto is the death of a lawyer that just gets like all over the news and like he has to go and investigate it. And it's this, you know, the body is dead on the floor or whatever, and in blood scrawled on the floor is the word greed.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So now we have— I mean, this is like, I was raised in the Catholic Church. I went to CCD classes. You know, it's pretty easy to be like, oh, gluttony and greed. This is starting to sound, you know, like it has a pattern to it. Yeah. The deadly sins or whatever. So it's— smartly, Mills reaches back out to Somerset and be like, uh, there might be something going on here.

Nic

Maybe we should work together here. Yeah. And this lawyer's office, I mean, there's a ton of press there. This is like a well-known defense attorney. Yes. This would be like a, you know, Robert Kardashian, Johnny Cochran type guy. Probably in this situation, because the way they're talking about it, they're kind of like, you know, he was someone that was getting people off who he knew to be guilty. He was doing his job as an attorney. Should it exist? Should you accept that job? Those are questions. Those are real questions. But, you know, that's like what he did is he helped like criminals stay free.

Steve

And I got to be honest, as a bleeding heart liberal, I'm still like, yes, the criminal, the worst people in the world deserve the best defense possible because sure, it's still just like, I don't know, I like bristle a bit at the whole like— and this was such a '90s thing. Of like defense attorneys are evil. And it's like, no, they're fucking not. Like, they have— like, somebody has to like help people, you know, navigate our legal system. Like, at the very least, you know what I mean? It's like, it's not— it's not every— we would all just be getting taken advantage of left, right, and center more than we are if it weren't for defense attorneys.

Nic

Yeah, I think it's that, you know, the people that could use a Johnnie Cochran level of defense are getting a public defender, and the people that should be thrown into a pit of fire forever are getting like 5 Johnnie Cochrans.

Steve

But now we're talking about capitalism, and that's a whole other conversation.

Nic

Um, but no, we're, we're not fully anti-defense attorney, uh, on this show here. Um, and the DA, uh, who's played by John Shaft, Richard Roundtree, uh, he's definitely— he's doing damage control here because this is like now a big enough story and he's just like, he's determined to catch the guy. So there's like more firepower behind figuring out what the fuck is going on now.

Steve

Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, so basically, uh, they realize there might be a connection between these two So what happens is they find pieces of plastic in the fat guy's stomach. And when, uh, so Somerset goes back to the gluttony scene and notices that they're not plastic, they're actually linoleum, right? They're like scraped up scrapes of linoleum.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And he moves the refrigerator, uh, and is that where the word gluttony was? Yeah.

Nic

Oh, sorry, that's behind the refrigerator. Yeah, I forgot that.

Steve

So it's on the wall.

Nic

So we didn't get gluttony first.

Steve

I wrote Gluttony in my notes because I know that was the Gluttony murder. I was—.

Nic

Because I was trying to order it like that too. Whatever, everyone who's listening has seen the movie. Um, one thing, uh, when we're at Somerset's office, yeah, and he's, he's kind of like having a little meeting in there and they just have to hammer home the fact that he's retiring, so they have a guy scraping his name off the door. He couldn't just wear a sash that said last week of work the whole time, so they had to do But that was a pretty funny scene, and it was like immediately annoying. And then when the characters addressed it, you're like, thank you.

Steve

Right, exactly.

Nic

Get that guy out of here.

Steve

Could you not do that, please? Um, yeah, so basically Somerset has picked up on the theme here. There's this theme, and, uh, he decides—.

Nic

He's just like, there's 2, you know, and he lists them off. He's like, you can expect 5 more deaths.

Steve

That's right, yeah.

Nic

He's so Morgan Freeman. I like when he goes into like authoritative Morgan Freeman mode.

Steve

I love that he like holds up the pictures just of the words greed and gluttony from the 2 crimes. We have greed, gluttony, anger, like wrath, pride, you know, it just goes on and on. Lust, like— Yeah. But it's this. So he's picked up on the theme. I think Mills and the captain are still not convinced, but Somerset says, I told you I can't do this. This is your case, Mills. I'm gonna go to the library though. He decides to go to the library and like look up a bunch of stories. You know, he reads stuff like the Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, Canterbury Tales, like whatever it might be. You know, all these kind of books that might reference the 7 deadly sins. Um, and he makes like a list for, for Mills, like, hey, these are the books you should go check out to do this. And this was like my favorite moment. Oh, is the cop bringing Mills the CliffsNotes? Yes. Oh my God, I love it.

Nic

Some of these, some of the cuts, and it's like, you know, the, the style of the filmmaker, but certain times where we're going between Somerset and Mills, there's like a big chunk of time that passes and you don't really know until something starts happening. Like when Mills is first going to investigate the lawyer's death, You—it seems like he could have just been going straight from the conversation he had with Somerset. Oh, right, right. It was you know actually the next day or whatever. But yeah, I love that he gets the Cliff Notes to the books. The library is cool as shit. The big big city USA library that they're in seems awesome, and the job of being like the night watchman there seems like the all-time gig to get.

Steve

You mean being in a poker club?

Nic

Really is all it looks. It looks really nice. And then as Somerset was at the library looking stuff up, you know Mills is at his house going looking at the pictures and everything, and. So he's agonizing over the case file.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So we get like the different styles. Yeah. Which is funny because Somerset's so by the book and he's doing like the not by the book thing. Well, I think he's probably doing the best investigative work he could do.

Steve

What he's doing, because what he's really doing, right? You're right. It is by the book because it's like, you know, leave no stone unturned, like look everywhere. And he's thinking outside of just the parameters of the case, looking at like, well, if I'm right and these murders are connected in what seems like a pretty obvious way, we've got literal the names of the Seven Deadly Sins like written on the fucking crime scenes. Yeah, I don't think I'm out of base here thinking this might have something to do with this. Whereas Mills is like, nope, what's in the case file is in the case file. All the answers are here. And he's just kind of focused just on that, right? Yeah.

Nic

Yeah. So it looks like, you know, Somerset is in this world of wealth of knowledge, right? He's swimming in a sea of information at this library, and Mills just keeps looking at the same 10 things over and over and over again.

Steve

Not the most subtle of analogies in whatever situations that Fincher puts the characters in, but it, but it certainly does tell us that, right? What world they're living in. So yeah, next day, back into the office, and Mills is now actually kind of taking the office. There's a little desk kind of off to the side, and Somerset moves over, but Mills— it's Mills' office now. I love this moment where the phone rings and Mills isn't sure what to do, and Somerset kind of looks at him like, it's your office now, pal, like, go ahead.

Nic

Phone comes with the desk.

Steve

Phone comes with the desk. And it's his wife Tracy, Gwyneth Paltrow, who's calling. And we don't, like, hear her side of the conversation, we just hear whatever. But, you know, he's kind of like, well, don't— you know, I don't want you calling me at work. Like, kind of like, whatever, like, don't bother me, lady, you know, whatever. And— but then finally he's like, He's like, um, she wants to talk to you, and hands it over to Somerset. He basically gets invited over for dinner. And I love too that like he like says that all, you know, thank you, of course, then I'll come, you know, whatever, and hands the phone back to Mills. She's hung up on him, and then there's like nothing for a moment, and Mills goes, so what would— like, tell me what the hell that was.

Nic

I didn't even inform you.

Steve

Oh, I've been invited to a late supper at your home, and I accepted.

Nic

Oh man, I like that they, uh, I like that they're using supper. I know, that's very Morgan Freeman character, uh, thing to say.

Steve

Very Somerset, right? A guy named Somerset would call it supper, right?

Nic

Sure. Um, was the other phone thing before this, uh, slightly where R. Lee Ermey is in one of the offices and then he just picks up a phone and he's like, this isn't my desk, and then he hangs up?

Steve

Yeah, that was when they were doing the initial sort of tie together of the police.

Nic

So I do love the disrespecting of the phone ringing. It's really nice.

Steve

What are you doing calling me? This isn't even my desk.

Nic

Uh, so they show up at Mills's apartment and then Tracy greets them and stuff and she says, oh, here, David. You know, she's like, I didn't even know your first name. So she gets the first names from the guy. Says, oh, David's gonna go say hi to the kids, right? And then he's, you know, in this room that they have a few big dogs.

Steve

Oh yeah, yeah.

Nic

Room that's just floor covered in newspaper, meaning they're pissing and shitting there, and he's rolling around on the floor with the dogs. Like, look, I know you're— you've just been in the 2 grossest places you've ever seen in your life, so maybe nothing's gross, but come on, man, like, at least change your work clothes,.

Steve

Right? Or like, you know, I don't know, move the puppy pads aside before—.

Nic

Or let the dogs out and play with them. Them.

Steve

Something, man. So rolling around in the toilet is not, not the look. Uh, yeah,.

Nic

They got their dog. And then we have a scene which is— it's kind of like we've been hit pretty hard at the beginning of this film with these gruesome deaths. So yeah, this dinner scene is like just, okay, we're hanging out, getting to know each other a little bit. It's a little bit of a lull in the, in the gore.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, we learned a little bit about Tracy and David, like where they came from. They— he's, you know, their high school sweethearts, like all this kind of stuff. Uh, and, uh, and then we get a little moment of like their apartment rattles whenever like a, uh, somebody, you know, the sub, the L train or something goes by, right? And it just completely shakes the whole apartment. And, and, you know, Somerset finds this very funny.

Nic

That's where the city thing really confused me because at the beginning, uh, I was like, oh, this is New York City.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nic

And then that happens and I was like, that's a very Chicago experience, even though there are parts of New York where the train— if you're outside Manhattan— cinema, you see that in Chicago. Right? Blues Brothers most famously. Um, so yeah, it was like, you're fucking with us here.

Steve

Yeah, I was actually surprised how much of the subway— the subway in New York is actually elevated above ground when you're outside Manhattan. There's actually kind of a lot of it, right? So maybe there's just a crossbar here or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, so yeah.

Nic

Um, so let's see, uh, they're getting, uh, to the third— or they're talking more about the, uh, the crime scene. The attorney—.

Steve

The attorney—.

Nic

And how he actually Died, which is horrific. Wild, right? And, uh, and what happened is he basically was made to carve like the pound of flesh, right? Exactly. Which is a, you know, biblical, biblical thing. And he was made to like carve it out of his own body. And, you know, in the process of that, killed him.

Steve

Bled out and died. Yeah, yeah.

Nic

And, uh, and what Somerset is like, you know, this killer, he's preaching to us. Like, he's not— he's trying to send a message.

Steve

These are sermons.

Nic

Yeah. Um, and then there's a photograph, uh, in the lawyer's office of his wife.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

That has like blood on the face, but then the eyes are exposed. Like a Zorro mask of blood around the eyes.

Steve

It's like, it was like circles around the eyes, but then of course some of that blood dripped. Yeah. It was like further down, but like the key was it was like obviously indicating her eyes. And so they decide they need to go talk to her, Mrs. Gould, the, the lawyer's wife. And, um, she is obviously not really in a mood to talk about this. Like, it's a horrific situation for her. She's kind of freaking out, but they ask like, is there anything you can see in these photos that like Like isn't the way it should be. You know, I would think of myself other than your husband's corpse. You know, because that shouldn't be there. But she does notice there's a painting, and she says that painting is upside down. Like that's not normal. And they're like, okay, interesting. So they go back to that scene.

Nic

It's an abstract painting, so it's not like it's upside down guy.

Steve

Yeah, it wouldn't be obvious except to somebody who's familiar with it, right? And so she is, and so she points it out. And so they go back and they comment. They take the painting off the wall, and they comment how it was even re. Like, the wire was rebracketed so that it would look correct, as it was hanging the wrong way. And it's like, wow, this takes a long— why would you do that, almost? But it doesn't look like there's anything there. They're ripping that backing off of the painting, off of the canvas.

Nic

I love ripping the paper off the back.

Steve

All that stuff, and there's nothing in there. And then, I think it's Somerset gets up on the credenza there and just kind of like— I don't know if he's sort of dusting it.

Nic

It's like a UV light or whatever he does to be able to see the fingerprints.

Steve

And he sees fingerprints that are on the wall, and the prints themselves are sort of wiped or been pressed to say, help me. Yeah, uh, uh, on the wall. And they're like, oh, who is this? And they— and initially we're told, uh, because they have the crime lab looking at it, this is not the victim's fingerprints. Uh, so we're gonna keep— and it's not Mrs. Gould's fingerprints or whatever, you know. So like, we're— we don't know who this is. We got to check it out. Uh, and so what they're assuming is that whoever's fingerprints it is is the perpetrator,.

Nic

Right?

Steve

And it takes a little while. They actually fall asleep on the bench outside the, like, lab, guys.

Nic

Yeah, I like— at least, you know, a lot of times movies like this, there's just magical stuff that happens just for the sake of moving it along. And it I think it could make it like— it makes it more interesting that we know that sometimes you have to wait forever to get a fingerprint match. It's not an automatic thing.

Steve

Yeah, no, it's good if they can show us that information in several seconds so it doesn't slow us down, but it's clear that it's like affected the characters. I agree with you, it's really good stuff.

Nic

Um, so the prints come up, right? And the— they're looking at the record of the person whose prints it is, and it's someone who's like, you know, would fit the profile of being a killer, just career criminal. Uh, pedophile, like, sexual criminal, like all this shit.

Steve

And importantly, a client of Gould's. So the key is they know this person was represented by the, the deceased lawyer, so it's his defense attorney. So it's like, well, that's interesting. Yeah. So, so they fucking mount up. I mean, this is like—.

Nic

This is wild, the number of cops. Yeah, this is every cop in unnamed city, USA.

Steve

But they also believe that this guy's killed at least 2 people. Somerset's of the idea that if he has If he isn't stopped, it'll get to 7, right? You know, kind of thing. So, so it's very serious. So they go, and man, this— I love— we got John C. McGinley with a buzz cut. We don't see a lot of buzz cut John C. Love that.

Nic

This is tough John C. He's like the only other— other than the main 4, he's like the only other notable— well, Lee Ermey a little bit. A little bit. Yeah, yeah. It's funny to see him in like such a minor role. Yeah. Because he talks like— he's a talking guy. He's like a Vince Vaughn. Like, he's good when he's got a lot of clever shit to say. And he almost says nothing.

Steve

Almost nothing. Although this is kind of his main scene. This and the helicopter at the end are kind of his main, you know, involvements in the plot. So he is in it a bunch. But yeah, it's like, it's an interesting sort of role for him. Almost like, did he desperately want to work with Fincher? It just feels like the kind of thing, like when his agent brought it to him, it's like, why did he take it? Like, I know he wasn't like a superstar or anything, but he was doing good work. Yeah, yeah. You know this, you know what it feels like? It feels a little bit like Jeff Daniels in Speed, right? That really small role that he had in Speed, and it was like like the couple years before that, he was like in Dumb and Dumber, which— yeah, half a billion dollars or some shit. Like, it's just kind of funny.

Nic

Just want to do something different.

Steve

Just want to do something else, man. Like, but anyway, so they, they, you know, they're SWAT and everybody are storming this apartment building. They're going up, they find the apartment, they bust in, and it's like, you know, they're clearing rooms, clearing rooms, whatever. And then they bust into the bedroom, and this is the— we mentioned the top of the, of the thing. This is the, the, the, uh, pine tree car air fresheners hanging from the ceiling, thousands of them or something.

Nic

Crazy, crazy amount of time.

Steve

This is absolutely wild. And initially the bed is, you know, whoever's in bed, there's a body in bed, but covered with a sheet. And they're kind of like, you know, get up, asshole, like whatever. They pull it back and it is this, it is the most mummified, emaciated—.

Nic

It looks like the Cryptkeeper.

Steve

Oh my God, horrific.

Nic

Crazy, right? And it says, it says Sloth on the wall,.

Steve

Right?

Nic

Uh, behind the, behind the bed, right? And so they're just like, all right, well, this guy's clearly dead, whatever. One of the cops leans close to this guy. It was McKinley. He leans close to him and he's like, you got what you deserved.

Steve

Yeah, because they all know this is a guy who was like, you know, got off of the charge but was like on trial for like child rape. Yeah, I mean, this is a horrible human being, also a drug dealer. So nobody's sad this guy's dead, right? Problem is the corpse coughed at him. One of the greatest moments in this movie— oh my God— is the cough from this nearly dead body that freaks everybody out.

Nic

Because it, you know, like this, this movie is not a horror in the traditional sense, like we talked about. It doesn't have these jump scares, but that's like a jump scare. In this movie for sure.

Steve

Big time.

Nic

Oh my God, really.

Steve

Good stuff.

Nic

Um, so, uh, so he's alive and they, they take him off to the hospital, but he's in rough shape. And, uh, Somerset and Mills are now kind of chit-chatting like outside the door to the apartment. And, uh, this photographer comes up the stairs, you know, classic annoying, like, in-your-face paparazzi guy. And, uh, snapping pictures of him like the guy from, uh, Brewster's Millions that he paid to like follow him around. Like that personality type.

Steve

Also a little bit like Big Lebowski, is that you and your special lady friend?

Nic

Like, you know, they're like, get the fuck out of here. And Mills is pissed. He's like, he's like, these fucking guys, or whatever. And Somerset's like, oh, you know, they pay the cops for these tips to show up early, and they pay good money. Yeah. And it's weird, again, Mr. By-the-Book, but he's also Mr. I know how things actually work in the real world. And some of these cops, that extra $500 they get from the crime photographer, that's like a big difference. Yeah.

Steve

He's a little Serpico-ish, where it's kind of like well aware of all the bullshit that goes on. Yeah. Doesn't partake himself. Yeah. And never, but then unlike Serpico, never wanted, you know, it's not like Somerset's an IA officer who's like there to bust this stuff. He just knows it happens like that. So, but yeah, so there's that. And yeah, I mean, you can freeze frame, you know, you can pause it and see there's a couple of, one or two frames of really get a good look at that paparazzi's face. But it does take a little bit to try and do it. But—.

Nic

And he doesn't talk, you know, he doesn't say much. No, no, no. He doesn't say it. Puts a little bit of a voice on.

Steve

Yeah, exactly.

Nic

So we're at the hospital now where the victim, the Sloth victim, has been taken. And Mills, very funny, I think this is showing just him being really naive, just saying to the doctor, be like, oh, has he said anything yet? He's just like, this guy was basically a pulse. Yeah. And that's it.

Steve

That's it. Yeah. He says to me, like, even, even if his brain wasn't mush, which it is, he chewed his tongue off a long time ago. He couldn't say anything.

Nic

Such a crazy line.

Steve

So gross.

Nic

And then, uh, the doctor also said something else, like, this is probably the person who's been through, like, the most pain and suffering that I could ever imagine. And he still has hell to look forward to. Yeah, so no, there's no sympathy for this, this cr— this like shriveled up guy.

Steve

And everybody knows who he is. Yes, like the doctors know, the cops know, everybody knows who this person— this is a famous criminal who got off. This is O.J. Simpson. Yeah, yeah, like in this world. So everybody is happy that he's dead basically, which is interesting.

Nic

Um, but, um, and, and again, I like— if you're the killer, as a strategy, yeah, to kill someone that nobody cares about, that at least buys you some time.

Steve

That's true. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, so now I think Tracy gives Somerset a call.

Nic

Yes.

Steve

Uh, and he's a little confused. He's like, why are you calling me? Whatever. But she asks to meet, and so he meets her for breakfast, and they, uh, they talk a little bit. And for whatever reason, Tracy decides that Somerset's the one that she's going to mention to that she's pregnant. She hasn't told her husband yet, but she decides to tell his partner of 2 days that she met yesterday Does not really make any sense. It's it. I don't think this movie has a lot of plot holes, but this one's a little strange.

Nic

I think if we're trimming the movie, that yeah, this whole side.

Steve

But we need to plant this somehow. Like, we need to plant that she's pregnant. We need to make it so.

Nic

That look at a positive test that's in the trash. There you go.

Steve

Let the yeah. Somerset doesn't need to know. You know, although actually, he kind of does though. Like this is one of those things. This is the hard part, right? There there are points of any movie, and this happens in even the best written, best plotted movies where. You want a certain thing to happen later. You want this particular payoff, and I'm confident the writer came up with the payoff long before the plant.

Nic

For sure.

Steve

Right? And so then you got to figure out, you got to backtrack and go, well, how do I put this in motion so that at the very end of the movie this character knows something that this character doesn't know, and the audience knows that it's true, you know, kind of thing? So the audience and one character have to be ahead of another. That's not the easiest thing in the world to do. I get it. But this is where it's kind of like, ah, yeah, the, the plot suffers a little from like this stretch to like get that planted so that the payoff can happen later. And the payoff's great, like don't get me wrong, where they get to is wonderful. But this is like a little weak where it's like, why the fuck would she tell this guy? She says something about like, you're the only one I can— that I know in town, which is like, okay, also basically true. Except why didn't you just tell your husband? I don't know, like, because her kind of reasoning around like, well, I'm not sure if I would want to keep it because the world is so terrible, it's like, okay, I guess.

Nic

Because she was saying she's a teacher, right? And like what she witnesses or I will say, like, if they re-release Se7en in the theaters, when she sits down to talk to Morgan Freeman, go get some Junior Mints, go pee. Like, this is your time.

Steve

Yes, exactly. It's a good time for a bathroom break.

Nic

Um, and, and, but Somerset does tell a story basically about how, yeah, yeah, like, I made that same decision. Like, I made the decision with my partner back in the day to terminate a pregnancy.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

Uh, to this day, I 100% believe it was the right decision, and I also regret it every single day, which is like, yeah, I mean, it's one of those things, like, certain times you're put in a position a position where there are consequences no matter what you do.

Steve

Right, right. Yeah, and there is no, there is no happy ending from that scenario, right? You're not gonna be pleased. You just have to be satisfied-ish. Yeah, with whatever choice you make and move on with your life, you know? So yeah, so she's got a lot to think about. He gets beeped. I love he pulls his little pager out and has to check his pager because it's 1995. Um, and they're basically, uh, I think this Mills and him are meeting up again and they're having this conversation about whether this, this perpetrator, whoever it is, who's now killed 3 people is a nutbag or a genius. And it's the classic madness and genius sort of thing. But basically, Mills is convinced this guy's just crazy. And Somerset's like, yeah, crazy people can't put all this shit together. And this is definitely a part where it's like, we're meant to understand that Somerset is a massively smarter person than Mills is. And this is one of the scenes that really drives it home because it's like, to be this dismissive of the sort of character of your opponent, right, by— like, that Mills is being— You're hurting yourself.

Nic

Pretty terrible. I mean, this is a classic United States States thing, you know, when we're talking about certain other countries, it's just we classify them as being irrational, crazy actors instead of thinking of like, well, maybe, but also why, right? Why might they be doing— like, we have to be better about examining this if we want to stop it.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, so yeah, they're, uh, they're talking about how, um, Somerset's saying, well, I have a friend at the FBI, you know, who can search the library database. Certain books are flagged for different reasons, so the FBI has a database if you're checking out, you know, The Anarchist Cookbook and Mein Kampf and Turner Diaries and all this shit back to back, you're gonna get on a list. You're not gonna get arrested, but it's gonna draw the attention of something. Which also, this is fucked up. I know that this happens and this is 30 years old and it's probably gotten a trillion times worse and it's really fucked up, but it is a reality. So yeah, they basically find out that, you know, they give money to this guy, go like, hey, give me an hour, I'll get you the guy who's been checking these books out.

Steve

He's got again Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, like he's got all these sort of books and, you you know, these kind of special Catholicism treatises and different things like that. And sure enough, it comes back with like one name. There's like one name in that city borrowing all those books, you know, of all that style. Of course, the name is Jonathan Doe.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So, you know, but they get an address, and so they're able to go and actually check out, you know, this apartment.

Nic

Um, do you think this is a fuck-up by Jonathan? This is intentional that he didn't just buy those books, knowing that we know he has like unlimited funds. He could have purchased the books and not been on the record of this library card thing. It seems like he's— like, he needs it to end. Like, the way it goes is exactly how he wanted it to go the whole time, or did it get derailed at some point?

Steve

No, I think he makes it clear that this is a derail. Like, 'cause the thing happens a little bit that we'll talk about. He does mention that. So, but what I'll say is this. In 1995, we are so used to the surveillance society that we're in today and what, you know, how many— we know how much information, right? This is post-Edward Snowden's revelations. This is post-DHS being created, right? DHS didn't exist back then. So those organizations, FBI, NSA, CIA, they didn't talk to each other, right? What Border Patrol there was didn't talk to the FBI. Like, they weren't communicating at all, those organizations. In fact, they often were competing. So the idea that in 1995, you would've, as a mastermind evil villain, thought to yourself, if I go buy stuff, I'm now on record at that store. Even if I pay cash, somebody might recognize me. Like, whatever. Now I have this permanent— versus, like, using the library, it probably felt safer and more anonymous to use a library. Mm-hmm. Because I think nobody really— like, the way They play up how nobody can talk about this. Even Mills says, that's fucked up, they can't do that. He's like, yeah, I know, but it gets done. Don't fucking talk about it, you know, kind of thing.

Nic

So that's enough for us to know as an audience, like, this wouldn't be known to the villain yet. Like, he wouldn't be aware that this is a way he could be found out.

Steve

I think the idea that the FBI kept track of what you were borrowing from the library was the stuff of conspiracy theorist nuts in the mid-'90s, and that the average audience member—.

Nic

AKA prematurely correct.

Steve

Exactly right. But I think the average audience member was like scandalized by the idea that this was a vector they could track down. And even Somerset says, you can't use this in court. Like, this is inadmissible. But does it help you get to where you need to go? Maybe. And as long as you end up finding evidence you had a reason to look for, you're okay. But we can't just say, this is why we're here.

Nic

The smell of weed.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. That kind of thing. So I do think that's why. I think it felt more anonymous to be involved in like a library situation in the '90s than does today. I think we understand it's a little more surveilled, yeah, than it used to— than the understanding used to be. So I think that's what's going on there. But because we do know that this is not planned by Doe, so Somerset and Mills show up at the front door, they knock, nobody answers.

Nic

Oh, sorry. Oh, real, real quick. Yeah, yeah. Uh, they have a list of the books and they're reading through the books, and I think this is the only joke in this movie, and it's a killer joke. Actually, the Cliff Notes, I think, is another— is another, like, moment of levity. It's a moment movie. There's another Mills-ism, and he's reading the list of the books, you know, whatever, and he gets to Marquis de Sade and he says Marquis de Chardet. Fucking killer joke. Very, very like hit harder in the mid-'90s, but, uh, and maybe not the first time that that joke was made, but nice.

Steve

Marquis de Chardet. And it felt like it was such a— it also was giving us a little insight into like Mills's like musical taste. Like, because, yeah, because even, uh, you know, a, a 30-something or maybe late 20-something white man in the mid-'90s knowing how to properly pronounce Sade, the singer's name, is actually kind of impressive. Like,.

Nic

Yeah, he's like, he's like, yeah, Sade's good getting your wife pregnant music. Too bad it hasn't worked so far, right, Somerset?

Steve

Maybe someday.

Nic

Okay, sorry. And now we're smashing cut. But I, I— that joke, I really did, uh, like I like that a lot. And again, in a movie where it's just so dark and you're brought down to such a level, like, certain things have to like pop you up a little bit.

Steve

Yeah, we need moments. Yeah, we need moments like that. Uh, but yeah, so they get to the front door of Doe's apartment, knock, nobody answers. Then coming up the sort of stairs at the end is a man in like a hat and coat carrying grocery bag maybe or something. And they both like look up at him and he stops and looks and then drops the grocery bag and fires a gun at them. And it starts a fantastic foot chase. Yeah, great foot chase. We saw some great, uh, we've seen some great chases in recent episodes, and this is one of the best foot chases through the city I've seen.

Nic

This is the thing I like about this, uh, that's different than, you know, like the, the Point Break foot chase, which is an example of a really good one, but one where the pursuer knows exactly where he's going the entire time.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

This one gives you such a cool sense of confusion, uh, the Mills character, where it's like, where the fuck like he could have popped into a door. Like, there's so many ways in and out, you know? And, and I really enjoyed that. And, and it has one of our favorite things of the chase just going through somebody's apartment. If you live in a rough area, there might just be a chase through your apartment.

Steve

It seems like it. And all the civilians standing around are pointing him in the right direction. Do you think somebody ran through that way? I don't know who the fuck it was, but there, run over there.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Um, and there's some firing back and forth, you know. He gets out a window at one point. Mills has to double back. Like, all this Eventually Mills gets outside, back out into the pouring rain and in like an alleyway, and gets like punched from above. Like, like Doe is standing on a, on a truck trailer or something, whatever, and is able to punch him and, and gets him to the point where he's got a gun to his head and decides not to kill him, which is an interesting choice.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And I think it's only the— I think the only reason he doesn't kill Mills in this moment is that it doesn't fit the theme he has. Like, he's got a theme going, and we know later that Mills is part of it, so this is like the only reason he won't do it here is that it doesn't— like, it's not artistic enough,.

Nic

Right? Like, like, I've got work to do is more important than this is the way I save my own life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, the project is—.

Steve

Well, because his life is useless if he can't complete his project.

Nic

And he's already— I mean, it's almost like a, like a monk or someone who gives up all their possessions. Like, by becoming John Doe and getting rid of your fingerprints, it makes you hard to discover. But in his own mind, he has to have like let go of whatever his identity was to just become this project.

Steve

Complete like ego dissolve.

Nic

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, as Somerset approaches, right as the villain runs off who had had the gun to Mills's head, and Mills is like, all right, yeah, we were at the right fucking place, clearly, let's go in. And Somerset's like, oh, but we don't have a warrant.

Steve

Yeah, we have no reason to be here because they can't use the FBI fucking library list.

Nic

Yeah, so, uh, so Mills is just like, yeah, yeah, right, and then just fucking kicks in the door anyway. Um, and later what, what they do is he like pays a person who seems like, clearly from what he's saying to them, seems like a drug addict.

Steve

Yes, homeless.

Nic

To just say to the police that, oh, I actually called Somerset because this guy was weird coming in and out. And then he gives, he gives her money and he's like, make sure you get food with it, right? You know, so that great detail though that tells you a lot. So this place is fucking—.

Steve

So fucked up. Like, let's pause it because we've talked about so many apartments and homes on this, right? Whether it's Sleeping with the Enemy's beach house, it's the Sneakers loft. It's like, you know, all these places that have crazy— you know, So I Married an Axe Murderer, right?

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

This is the wildest apartment of any that I think we've ever seen. First of all, it appears to be 10 rooms.

Nic

Okay. I was going to say that I would love a companion. Like, you know, the beginning of The Hobbit or whatever where they're like, Map drawn. I want like the inside of the DVD. John Doe's floor plan. Yeah, I want a floor plan. I want blueprints of all this shit.

Steve

Crazy. There's so many rooms. They keep going into different rooms. Also, there's like a dark room, right? That's the bathroom, I guess, with all these photos in it.

Nic

And I will say, if you have your own dark room, go to jail. It is the official hobby of creeps. Uh, yeah. And he's got souvenirs. So he has these like cabinets on the wall that have souvenirs from the kills, right? Yes. So one cabinet has the of the spaghetti sauce from the, uh, from the first guy. Uh, one of— let's see, what does he have in the other one?

Steve

One's definitely got— there's a hand.

Nic

Right, the hand that he used to make the help me handprints. So that's the sloth victim.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, so there's like a handful of things like going across here. Um, photos.

Steve

The pound of flesh is literally there for the, for the greed dude.

Nic

Yeah, dude.

Steve

Yeah. And so, and then all these photos are hanging up and Mills is looking through them, and, uh, there's a bunch of this blonde woman that we don't recognize, but there's a bunch of photos of her. And then he looks into the bathroom tub, and he screams out to Somerset, Somerset! You know, whatever. And he comes rushing in, and it's the photos of Mills and Somerset from that photographer on the stairs, right? So now we confirm that was John Doe.

Nic

So they had him.

Steve

He was right there. Yep, exactly, which is a bummer. And then one of the coolest notes ever, right, or the kind of coolest moments, is that, you know, one of these other cops that's just kind of surveying the scene and trying to collect evidence goes up to Mills and goes, um, I don't think you're going to believe this, but we haven't found a fingerprint yet. He goes, you're right, I don't believe you. Keep looking, but there are no fingerprints anywhere in the apartment, which is crazy.

Nic

That's wild. It is really wild. And there's a crazy— and it's not like an apartment that, uh, oh, okay, I just got this to stage my crime. Like, this is a lived-in place. There's a crazy number of like handwritten journals and notebooks and all this stuff.

Steve

And what— hundreds. Yeah.

Nic

And Somerset's like, these are in no order. There's no dates on any of these.

Steve

Crazy. Just ramblings from his brain.

Nic

Crazy. Uh, so while they're there, the phone rings.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

And this is, this is John Doe on the phone. And, uh,.

Steve

Right, you know, he calls and he basically admits like, nice work, that was impressive, I didn't expect you to find me, uh, so now I have to speed up the rest of my plan, just so you know. Like, you know, but, but basically like, but he's like says something like, but boy, I respect, I respect you guys, you're, you're good opponents, like kind of thing. Which is like the villain's way of being like, oh, perhaps I have, I have met my match. No, I haven't. Thing. Um,.

Nic

One of the display cases, um, one of the display things on the wall had like— was it a receipt for a leather shop or some like custom-made like leather piece that he had made? So this is kind of their next clue.

Steve

Yeah, there's that, and there's also the pictures of the blonde woman in there. And kind of, I think in both cases we're looking at— but they do go to the, to the, uh, uh, leather goods shop or whatever, and they've got, you know, the guy brings a picture and he's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy, like John Doe. Like it was easy to remember This is what he had me make. And we don't see it, but they're kind of like, you made this for somebody? He goes, yeah, I thought he was like a performance artist, like those guys who get up on stage and piss themselves, or whatever he fucking says, right? But they don't tell us what it is. But then it's like, we get— I think they get another call and they realize this is like related, and they go to a brothel basically, or, you know, it's some kind of rent-by-the-hour hotel kind of thing. Yeah. And yeah, luckily they don't show us the corpse on this one too closely, uh, but we learned that the— it was basically a knife blade dildo.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And Doe took this John, this, this, this, you know, guy who was there to fuck this hooker, and held a gun to his head and was like, fuck her with this blade. And oh God.

Nic

So, so he made him, he made him murder this, uh, this woman here. Very nasty. Um, the guy who is like the front desk guy, the, the proprietor of the, of the brothel, manager.

Steve

Or whatever he is,.

Nic

One of the least credible faces I've ever seen in my life. Like, just everything that guy says is a fucking lie. Like, he just has one of those looks.

Steve

Yeah. Why did he remind me of the bald guy from Face/Off? The friend or whatever? I don't know. There was something about him that felt like— it wasn't the same actor, but it like— there's a vibe.

Nic

Yeah, a little Dieter-ish.

Steve

Yeah, there you go. Dieter. Yeah. But, uh, but yeah, so basically, you know, this is like the— this is the lust sin crime, right? So, so I think lust is even written on the wall again, or on the floor. I remember there's something that they, they wrote it somewhere.

Nic

And the interview, the, the police interview Of the guy who had the device strapped to him. First of all, when they get there, the guy still has it on. He's just like, get this thing off me! Get this thing— like, really? And he is just shaking, sweating. But it's like interesting because you're like, yeah, you did save your own life by killing somebody else. Yeah, yeah.

Steve

You know, so, so is it self-defense?

Nic

Like, it's hard to know. And you were also— you were there in the first place, right? You probably didn't get brought there,.

Steve

Right? I mean, you were there to commit one crime, not that one.

Nic

Yeah, yeah. Oh, Jesus.

Steve

But by the way, this— I don't know if this is what you were referencing, but this was a thing where it was like, I remembered the, the, the pine tree air fresheners. I forgot the blade dildo.

Nic

I did too.

Steve

How did I forget the blade dildo?

Nic

The things that I remembered were the pine tree air fresheners and for some reason the pieces of plastic being— Oh, interesting. Okay, okay. And in my memory, he died because he was fed like some hybrid of like food and plastic that killed him. Um, so for whatever reason, that stuck in my head. But yeah, knife blade dildo, I just might have been like already too much in shock to catch.

Steve

The things that always, that always stick with me are, yeah, the pine tree air fresheners, what's in the box, and, and the pound of flesh. Those are the parts I remember. But though, yeah, the blade dildo, I think it's my brain blocked it out.

Nic

It's— well, and we're with it briefly. Yeah, yeah. You know, we're not spending— but it's just like the idea of it, because you see the device.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

And it's.

Steve

Like, oh, just— I don't know,.

Nic

Incredibly brutal. Like, like if that thing was miniaturized to be like a fish hook. Yeah, yeah, it would be illegal by the game warden because they'd be like, that's too cruel to the fish.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. Um, not good stuff.

Nic

So, so Mills, you know, he goes home, goes home to his wife.

Steve

Yep.

Nic

Uh, so we get the scene of them together, and then we've got, uh, we've got Somerset, uh, with his switchblade dartboard, which I love. Goddamn it, this is the best, dude.

Steve

Love it. Yep, it's awesome. We're gonna get the switchblade the official blade of— or weapon of crime tag on this, even though technically it's not a criminal using it in this one. But you know, the switchblade is such a character. Yeah,.

Nic

In this movie it really.

Steve

It is.

Nic

Uh, also, maybe you need some crime to fight some crime.

Steve

Also, we should look back and see how many other movies had bathroom, uh, dark rooms, because at least The Ref did as well. Yeah, there might be another one.

Nic

Yeah, we got to do a dark room examination again.

Steve

Assholes with dark rooms.

Nic

Um, okay, so, so our next victim here. Yes. Uh, the sin here is pride.

Steve

Pride, right?

Nic

And it— this is somebody who is— was maybe like a famous, I don't know, pop star, model, somebody who whose livelihood was based on her appearance.

Steve

And she had a huge self-portrait above her bed. Yeah. An enormous self-portrait.

Nic

Very, very much like very wealthy, famous, but also very into their own image. Nothing more important than her own face to her, right?

Steve

Right. So she had her face— her nose was cut off, her face was slashed up, and then it was like he gave her pills that would kill her. So it's either like— she wouldn't have killed her on its own. So it would have been like, you stay here and you'll live, but you'll be disfigured.

Nic

Well, he had a phone glued to one of her hands. Oh, that's right. That's what it was. And then he had this bottle of pills, right? It's like you can, you can take the sleeping pills and die, and you don't have to live with a noseless face, right? You don't have to go all Voldemort. You don't have to do Voldemort maxing.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Uh, or you call 911, and she opted for that, which is crazy.

Steve

Crazy.

Nic

Um, but, uh, yeah, so that's the sin of pride. Jesus.

Steve

Yeah. So they're not there very long. This, this, this crime scene, they don't take very long, but they're, they're getting pissed. Mills and Somerset are like, goddamn, so now he's done 5. This is 5 of the sins. The only ones left are like envy and wrath or whatever. So they go back to the precinct, and I— this is like a great moment in this movie. They walk in and we see, uh, somebody get out of a cab kind of like right behind them. We just see kind of his feet and he walks in, and before we see that he is— that this other person has even entered the precinct, we hear Kevin Spacey's voice to say, detective, detective. And then when he yells, detective, like it's So fucking good.

Nic

Yeah, I know.

Steve

I like the like how.

Nic

Far he raised the volume.

Steve

For that last one because he does like two at at speaking volume and then just shrieks out and it's like you know and he's there to to he's he's got blood all over his face covered in blood his fingertips.

Nic

Are all wrapped in gauze.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

Completely bloody his blood all over his shirt and everything.

Steve

But he gets down you know they get him down cuff him and he's basically there and he and immediately asks for lawyer right who's played by Toby from West Wing.

Nic

Uh, and he's got, uh, they can't fingerprint him, right? There's like, there's no record of this guy.

Steve

Yep.

Nic

The only thing we can assume about him is he's independently wealthy, he's well-educated, and he's totally insane. Well,.

Steve

There you go, right?

Nic

So,.

Steve

Uh, narrows it.

Nic

And, and what the lawyer tells him is like, okay, well, there are 2 more bodies, right? My client tells me, and, and he will take you to them, but it has to be just Mills and Somerset with him.

Steve

And it has to be at 6 o'clock today.

Nic

Yes.

Steve

Right.

Nic

And otherwise he's gonna plead insanity, which fucks up, you know, it's the last thing the cops want, right?

Steve

Right, yeah, yeah.

Nic

So, and if you take him here, full confession, you know, you're done.

Steve

If you follow his rules, yep, he will absolutely get busted for this.

Nic

And the DA says that there's blood from 3 people on John Doe. There's his own blood, there was—.

Steve

The blood from the pride victim, the model.

Nic

The blood from the pride victim, and then blood from a third party that they haven't identified. Right, haven't matched it yet.

Steve

Yep. So they shave their chests so that they can be wired.

Nic

Absolute fan service here. This was, this was the legend of the fall heads. We're like, hey, we need to see some Brad Pitt chest in this. I think this is how we do it.

Steve

I think this was more of Morgan Freeman's, you know, it was more his chutzpah. That was his thing. Yeah.

Nic

So the, the cops are armed, right? They're armed and John Doe is unarmed in the back of the cop car. So he's not like an immediate threat to them. Plus they have a chopper following. That's right.

Steve

With John C. McGinley on it. John C. McGinley.

Nic

On board. SWAT team. SWAT John. And they're watching on.

Steve

But like the whole entire drive, basically, Doe is fucking with Mills and talking to him about, you know, all this stuff. Like, I love your life. And, you know, there's this. I mean, it's just like he's constantly talking about this stuff. And Mills is trying to say like, you know, you're gonna get forgotten in like a couple of days, man. Like once this is done, like just that's it. And he's like, no, no, I'll be studied. This will be studied. And it's like, he's fucking right. But yeah, so they get out to the kind of middle of nowhere. And this is the first time, by the way, in the entire movie that it's not pouring. Rain. You drive outside the city and it stops pouring rain.

Nic

They drive to a place that seems like geologically, geographically—.

Steve

Here's why it's not New York. Yeah, because you can't get to a place like this. Yeah, within an hour's drive of New York, right? You can from LA. So they filmed in LA, and this is in the outskirts somewhere in the deserts outside LA, but they wanted it to— they didn't want it to be LA. LA's too sunny and whatever they needed to be. So this is why there isn't a city named, because there is no city with this kind of geography. Be, right, in the US. Um, but they drive in the middle of nowhere and he sends them down around these like power lines or whatever, which I always assumed— they don't really say anything, but I think every time I've seen this movie I thought to myself, oh, so the chopper can't land. But I don't know that that actually matters. I think it was maybe just he, he needed a—.

Nic

Well, he had pre-landmarked the delivery anyway, right?

Steve

But he needed a landmark and there was this little trailer out there. Maybe that trailer actually has an address that he was able to give to the, to the delivery guy. I'm not sure. Like, some of this isn't super clear, but basically he drives drive out and they get out of the car, um, and they get, uh, uh, Doe out and he says, well, it's this way, right? So they start walking down.

Nic

Well, oh, sorry, real— Doe, uh, on the way is justifying that, that his victims have all like deserved what came to them, right?

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

So like in his mind, he is completely like— doesn't see himself as a killer in any way.

Steve

No, he's the hand of God. Yeah, he's the Archangel Michael. He's the hand— the angel of vengeance. But But yeah, so they go out and they're now walking out kind of in the middle of this field or whatever. And then a delivery van starts coming down the way. Yeah. And like, I think Somerset notices it first and it's like, oh, you know, wait here. And he runs back to the road in order to like intercept the van. And sure enough, the guy's like, hey man, guy paid me $500 to bring this box out here. Had to be here by 7. It's like 7:02 or something, whatever. And he's like, so he like, for whatever reason, Somerset has the dude just run away. He's like, have him picked up. Yeah, yeah. Delivery driver going for $500. Foot. And he— this is the, the entire reason the switchblade has existed the entire movie, is to justify why this man is carrying a blade on him. Yeah, yeah, at this moment, so that he can open the box. That's it. The entire switchblade thing is to make sure that he has a blade on him we're not surprised by. Yeah, but he pulls open the switchblade, cuts open the box, and is immediately terrified.

Nic

And yeah, and what we see is that there's blood, and he comments on how there's blood before he fully opens it.

Steve

That's true. And there are multiple versions Of this ending, I feel like. I know I've seen one where— because eventually there's a flash of what's in the box for like the splittest of seconds, and I've seen other versions where it lingers on it quite a bit. Uh, and so I feel like there's maybe— maybe there's like an unrated versus a theatrical cut or something like that. Um, but basically Somerset immediately understands what's going on. What he sees in the box, he knows what is supposed to happen next, and he wants to try to stop it.

Nic

Right. So he just starts running around the back Put the gun down.

Steve

Yeah, drop it. And he does not. And so this is when— this is when Mills starts yelling, what's in the box? Tell me what's in the box!

Nic

Well, because John Doe during this time— yeah, Somerset is, is like running over and, and, uh, Mills is like,.

Steve

Yeah, yeah,.

Nic

You know, look confused. And John Doe's like, oh, you know, I visited your wife. Like, I tried to— almost like, who knows what the fuck he did to her, but I tried to play husband. Yeah, play husband. And that didn't work, so I took a souvenir.

Steve

Yes,.

Nic

I took her pretty little head.

Steve

Yes, exactly.

Nic

And, uh, God, this what's in the box thing is— it's crazy because it gets, it gets, uh, ridiculed a lot because honestly, like, when you're really experiencing like just raw emotion that you can't contain, it looks silly.

Steve

Yeah, it does.

Nic

Yeah, but that's real. Oh yeah, fucking realistic.

Steve

Brad Pitt's a very good actor,.

Nic

And, and his agonizing Over now that he realizes like, okay, if I take out John Doe, his plan is complete. This is exactly what he wants, right? He becomes the 7th death.

Steve

Yeah,.

Nic

You know, I've got a gun on him. There's nobody around to stop me physically.

Steve

And although there are plenty of witnesses, right?

Nic

But going back and forth between like, like, I'm gonna fucking kill you, and crying like, oh, my wife is like—.

Steve

It's crazy. And then he mentions she cried, she screamed for her, you know, for to save her, to— she screamed for her life and for the life of the unborn child she was carrying, and he did not know. And this This is the setup, the payoff we were talking about earlier that they had to set up where Somerset knew, Mills did not, and the audience knew. And so then, you know, this is when Doe looks up at Somerset and goes, oh, he didn't know, did he? And that's when Mills pulls the trigger and shoots, you know, moments later, when after he realizes not only did this man kill his wife, but she was pregnant with their child.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So, you know, but yeah, he shoots— Mills kills Doe, shoots him in the head, and then, and Here's the thing, only needed the one shot, gave him a bunch more.

Nic

Gave him all the bullets he had. And yeah, I mean, it is like, what the fuck do you do? Like, you go back and forth in your head about like how you would actually act in that situation. And, uh, I don't know, I'm not a big emotion regulator as it is, so I, I think I wouldn't have taken much. I don't know, that's crazy. But yeah, so he, so he puts all the shots in him and clearly knows that, you know, he's fucking— he's going to jail for that. That is not a, uh, that's.

Steve

Murder. I mean, look, based on all the circumstances, he's probably gonna get a fairly light sentence, but he's going to be convicted of murder. There's no way he won't be.

Nic

Well, and Somerset was saying, get the chopper out of here, 'cause I think he was trying to reduce the number of witnesses so he could at least maybe finesse it a little to save Mills.

Steve

But we hear John C. McGinley over the radio saying, oh my fucking God, he shot him. Like, I mean, it's clear that it was witnessed. So, yeah, Mills will be going to jail for that, but I gotta be honest, I don't think a jury's gonna be all that interested. He's probably gonna be like involuntary manslaughter because he was emotionally unable to regulate himself. In that moment, given the circumstances, or something like that. But yeah, that is, that is the end of the movie, basically. We see him drive, being driven away, and, and there's a brief sort of voiceover from, from Somerset that kind of wraps it all up.

Nic

Yeah, what does he say? Like, uh, people say that the, the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I believe the second part.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. Uh, and then we get this cool— the credit sequence is really neat. It's kind of in reverse. Everything is like traveling. It felt like everything was going down from the top or something. There was something about it that felt backwards. Yeah, it was very interesting, but another very stylish kind of Fincher touch.

Nic

Super, super stylish. Yeah, yeah. Well, shit, that is Se7en, Steve.

Steve

Yeah, good shit, man. It's a lot to talk about.

Nic

It really is. But a great one to talk about. And the way the movie's structured, it makes this conversation work great because it's like first death, second death, third death, you know.

Steve

And, and I think for my, you know, to kind of get into my feelings on this and my, and my rating for this one, like one of the first things I to mention is like, this is one of the coolest— like I said, like I said, I was raised Catholic. I went to catechism classes as a kid, and you know, whatever, it was Catholic Sunday school basically. And being aware of kind of this mythology makes this really kind of cool to understand as a premise. Like somebody like came at this with this idea and then invented this killer and these methods, and it's all fucking brilliant in so many ways. So I think it's just one of the neatest premises for a crime thriller. It is incredibly well-written. There are a handful of moments that I don't think quite fit as well as other pieces. As an example, we talked about Tracy telling Somerset she's pregnant only exists so that the payoff can happen at the end. I'll excuse it, but it is a bit of a like, why would she do that? Doesn't really make a lot of sense. And then the only real hole, real hole in the whole movie, in my opinion, is this. Doe makes a big deal about all of the people that he killed were— they, they were committing the sin that he sort of organized their murder around, right? Yeah. So the gluttony, that was an incredibly fat man, and greed was the lawyer that, you know, would get anybody off, and sloth was the drug dealer who was making people, you know, like, not do their— live their lives. And then pride for the model, lust for the whore, etc. But we get to envy and wrath, and here's the problem. He says that his crime is envy. So his murder is the envy murder. So some— so Mills commits the murder that Doe set up for the sin of envy. Why is Tracy the dead person for wrath? Because the whole point is that it's Mills's wrath that kills, uh, Doe. And so Doe dies for his envy in the act of Mills sinning as wrathfulness. So why did Tracy die?

Nic

It's like it's just an outside murder. Like, there's, there's 8 Right, right.

Steve

But then, but then, but then that— if that's the case, then nobody died for wrath then, which would be a problem. So it's like, neither is—.

Nic

It is funny. Or I mean, the worst thing you can do to Mills, uh, for his wrath is to kill his unborn child or whatever.

Steve

That's— no, 100% agree that that drew that out of him, but that doesn't make the victim the sinner, especially since there's also an unborn child involved, right? So there's really an extra— there's a couple straight—.

Nic

It's like the Wu-Tang Clan. You got the Wu-Tang Clan and then you got Kappa Delta. Like Tracy's death is Kappa Donna.

Steve

Gotcha, very good. Not, not the RZA, the GZA, Ghostface, etc. Okay, uh, that makes a lot of sense. Anyway, that, that is honestly— but here's the thing, I say that because I do think it's a problem. I wish I had a satisfactory answer to it. I don't. And that is the only reason that I'm not a 5 out of 5 on Se7en. I am a 4.5 out of 5. I think this movie is fantastic. It is not an easy watch. It is not one that I'm gonna race back and watch a lot. But oh my God, I felt it was so well put together. The acting's fantastic. The writing's fantastic. Fantastic. The premise, the way the plot advances, they do all the payoffs and the setups and everything. It's all real pretty and perfect. I love all that. It's just an incredibly well-made film, good score and everything. But I'm a 4.5 out of 5 on Se7en. I probably would have been an even 5 if that kind of last 2 murders fit the puzzle slightly better. There's a little bit of a jigsaw piece hanging off there that doesn't quite fit.

Nic

Well, but he also was thrown off his plan, right? That's true. It's impossible for him to execute his original— that's a good point.

Steve

Maybe that— maybe Mills never meant to freestyle and.

Nic

Be bopping a.

Steve

Little bit. But you know, that's, that's, that's, that's where you lose your half point there.

Nic

I get it, I get it.

Steve

What about you, Nic?

Nic

Um, man, this was a lot of fun, uh, to talk about. Not a lot of fun to watch, right? Uh, no, I, I enjoy this movie a lot, and the premise of it is really cool. The problem you run into if you're trying to do something where it's like 7 deaths is how do we make them different from each other so it's not just 7 people shot in the head? And, and not even people that were necessarily killed by the killer, right? Like people who were, uh, put into making a choice and had to decide. And that was like a lot of the people, honestly, right? Um, so very, very cool the way that they did that. Uh, I— it's great that Kevin Spacey got to play himself in this movie. Uh, really one of the all-time best at playing just unimaginably evil characters. You ever see that movie Swimming with Sharks?

Steve

Oh yes, absolutely.

Nic

We should bring that to the pod because I remember that was like one of the scariest portrayals of a psycho, like, psycho boss, like narcissistic boss. Yeah, crazy. So, but he's excellent in this. And, um, yeah, I mean, the Morgan Freeman, Brad Pitt— I don't like— I didn't care about the characters that much, but it's not really like a character movie. No, true. And then the Tracy stuff, I'm like, yeah. And I feel like such a misogynist when I do this, and I want to find a movie where I would cut a guy out and leave the lady in because there's many such cases But I'm just not the biggest, uh, Gwyneth Paltrow fan anyway. And, uh, and even as an actress, like before she became like professionally annoying,.

Steve

Right?

Nic

Um, but, uh, but that part was the only thing that hung it up for me a bit. Um, some things in this were like so disturbing that I was just a little like, oh, like knife dildo and the way that I was just like, yeah. Um, but this movie, yeah, it has such a fucking cool And style.

Steve

Yeah,.

Nic

Uh, this was very strong for me. Uh, I'm gonna give this one a 4 out of 5. I think it was— yeah, I mean, fucking, it sticks with you. Like, it's a movie that is not done when you're done watching it.

Steve

That's fair. Very good point. All right.

Nic

I do want to say sorry. Yeah, one, one alternate ending that I would suggest. Ah, okay, so John Doe's envy, his crime of envy was he was envious of Mills and his wife and his family and his dogs and his fucking shitty newspaper and everything, right?

Steve

Yeah. Uh, oh God, you think he killed the dogs too?

Nic

Well, there was that like a dead animal like in that last scene, and John Doe's like, I didn't do that, like when they're driving up. So I feel like he's one of those people that has that crazy like, I would never harm an animal even though I'll cut a lady's throat, uh, kind of guy.

Steve

Ridiculous.

Nic

Um,.

Steve

Sorry,.

Nic

But I feel like, uh, if the John Doe character really knew these detectives like he did, he would have known about Somerset's switchblade dartboard.

Steve

Interesting.

Nic

And he would have been more jealous of that than Mills's wife and dogs. So, you know, that's the only small beef that I have. No, this, this, this is a fucking great movie. And some of the, like, the, the Trent Reznor stuff, it feel— it— the music, it felt very specific to this time. A couple scenes felt very dated in that mid-'90s way, the leather shop scene. But it's like, if you went in one of those places today, it would feel like that, you know? A lot of fun. Great one. Thanks for bringing it.

Steve

Absolutely. It was actually Howard Shore that did most of the score. Reznor only did the title track.

Nic

So he kind of took that industrial feel. Exactly.

Steve

Howard Shore's a chameleon.

Nic

And he doesn't usually— that's fucking crazy. He does Fellowship of the Ring and this.

Steve

Yeah, I mean, like I said, he's one of those guys. To me, he's up there with Silvestri and Williams and a bunch of the other greats, you know, as far as just crazy good film composers. And yeah, so this was another Howard Shore joint. But yeah, so, okay, so that's an 8.5 out of 10 from the 2 Dads on the movie. Movie Seven. I promise it's the last time I'm gonna do that. We're gonna continue on with Shocktoberfest Two Electric Boogaloo, Nick. What are we watching next week?

Nic

So next week, I thought this was a little gory myself. I want to watch something. Look, this one is probably it's more gross. Absolutely. Coming up next, we are gonna go to 1986 and we're. We're gonna hang out, uh, with Jeff Goldblum, who's playing, uh, Seth Brundle. We haven't seen Goldblum yet.

Steve

Oh my gosh, you're right.

Nic

And, um, and it's good to see him. And this is a movie that is like a real, like, kind of a monster, like in the traditional sense in a lot of ways, like a monster movie, a lot of practical effects and stuff like that. Uh, David Cronenberg, director of a lot of like very, you know, notable horror films for like the '80s '90s. Uh, one of his biggest films, uh, we're gonna watch 1986's The Fly.

Steve

Very nice.

Nic

Have you ever seen The Fly?

Steve

I have not ever seen it.

Nic

All right.

Steve

I'll be totally honest with you, uh, I love horror movies. It's like one of my favorite genres, but I can't stand body horror. Like, very specifically movies about people's bodies like being taken over or changing or, or revolting against them or whatever. Like, I, I can't. It's just not my thing. So I have been avoiding I've been avoiding watching The Fly for about 40 years, and we'll see how that goes for me next week. I do also know, by the way, another Howard Shore score. So that's a— All right. Exciting thing to do there. 2 Shores back to back. So yeah, next week we will watch— We're going Howard Shore. Yeah, we will watch The Fly with Jeff Goldblum and Geena Davis next week. That's a wrap. So if you like what you hear, please consider heading over to Apple or Spotify and leaving us a 5-star review. It helps new folks find the show. Be sure to check out our website at 2dads1movie.com. That's the number 2 and the number 1. There you can explore the movies we've covered, sign up for our newsletter, The Rewind, and even get sneak previews of upcoming episodes. Once again, this has been Se7en, another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

Thank you so much for listening, and we'll catch you next week.

Nic

Thanks, everyone.