Transcript

Intro Clip

I'll answer the question. You want answers? I think I'm entitled to—. You want answers? I want the truth! You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, Code loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to. Did you order the Code Red? I did the job. Did you order the Code Red? You're goddamn right I did!

Steve

It's 2 Dads 1 Movie. It's the podcast where 2 middle-aged dads sit around and shoot the shit about the movies of the '80s and '90s. Here are your hosts, Steve Paulo and Nic Briana. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

And today we are chatting about the 1992 Rob Reiner, Aaron Sorkin joint, A Few Good Men. And Nic, you brought a few good men to the table for us. So why don't you kick it off? Tell us a little bit about why you picked this movie.

Nic

Yeah, this is a movie I caught, you know, high school, probably when it was released on TV. This was a frequent, you know, even though it's an R-rated movie, this was a good USA TNT kind of rewatchable thing. So you'd see it a lot, you'd see bits and pieces of it. Uh, it definitely captured me. I mean, the courtroom drama, it does it about as good as any movie does.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Nic

And there's so many good stars in this film, it's even hard to say it. Like, when you're trying to think in your head, you're forgetting 3 or 4 of them because you just can't hold that many names in your head necessarily.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, so it was always one that stuck with me. Uh, really fun. Very dramatic, very different than a lot of the films we've done where we've done a lot that were kind of you know environment based and action and stuff. This is definitely just a dialogue movie, and and it really grabs you. So I think this is a lot of fun. The other thing is that this movie is an all-time favorite of my wife Jeannie, who's joining us here on the podcast today.

Steve

There's another person in the room.

Nic

She definitely influenced the choice. So it's it's one of her faves as well.

Steve

Welcome, Jeannie.

Jeanie

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Steve

Thank you for joining us. That's awesome. We've never had another guest on a show besides Nic and I, so consider it an honor.

Jeanie

I do.

Steve

Absolutely wonderful. Cool. Yeah, for myself, actually, no, wait a minute, stop. I shouldn't go there. Jeanie, why did you pressure Nic and force him to pick this movie this week? What's the deal there?

Jeanie

I love this movie.

Steve

Good.

Jeanie

It's— I saw it when I was, you know, 14 or something, and I just It's just so good. Every time it's on TV, you stop, or I stop anyway. I would always watch it. Tom Cruise, Scientology stuff, whatever. I love him. He's such a good actor, especially '80s and '90s movies. Tom Cruise, love him. It's just so good. I just love it. So thank you for doing it.

Steve

Yeah, absolutely. I love this movie too. So thank you both so much for for making me watch it this week. That was wonderful. I am a huge. Like nerd for dialogue and character-driven, you know, movies. And I was a stage actor for many years. And so Aaron Sorkin hits all the fucking buttons for me, all the right notes. And this is one of— this is probably my fa— no, this is my second favorite Aaron Sorkin film. The American President is, in my opinion, the best movie he ever made.

Jeanie

I like that one too.

Steve

It's really fantastic. And then obviously West Wing, love The West Wing. You know, I've seen so much of his stuff, Sorkin stuff on TV, and it's all great. And I do love— we were talking a little bit when we announced this last week Last week, uh, for our So I Met Your Axe Murderer episode, we talked about this one at the end. And, uh, I mentioned, of course, you know, it says at the beginning, but this is based off of a play. And it's got that vibe of like limited number of, uh, of locations, very dialogue-driven, very character-driven. You know, there's never— there's not like an action scene or anything remotely like an action scene anywhere in this movie.

Nic

No, sometimes they're showing things that they're describing like in a flashback thing that wouldn't appear in a play. But yeah, it is very much like what the characters are saying, that's the important thing.

Steve

Exactly. So yeah, very excited. This is one that I have loved. It sounds like just like you two have for years and years. So very excited to chat about it. Let's jump into the facts on A Few Good Men. The film A Few Good Men was released on December 11th, 1992, the day before my 13th birthday, which is—.

Nic

All right.

Steve

Just a fun little thing. With an R rating, a running time of 138 minutes, which puts it kind of high up on our list of movie length there. Directed by Rob Reiner and written by Aaron Sorkin, A Few Good Men stars Tom Cruise, Jack Nicholson, and Demi Moore, and like, a dozen other people you would be good to point out.

Jeanie

Yes.

Steve

Uh, scores: Rotten Tomatoes, 85% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, nice solid score. IMDb, a 7.8, very, very good. Um, the rare Siskel and Ebert split decision that doesn't go the way it normally does. This was a thumbs up from Gene Siskel and a thumbs down from Roger Ebert, which is—.

Nic

I don't know what you're looking at, Rog. Yeah, like he would have been with us here. Maybe Tom Cruise has too threatening of a jawline.

Steve

That might be it. That's true, especially that man. Yeah. But no, normally Siskel's the putz and Ebert's the homie, and it's flip-flopped here.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So, oh well. Lots of awards activity on this. Not a lot of wins. Really one kind of major win I could find, but tons of nominations. This was nominated for 4 Oscars in 1993, including Best Picture, Best Supporting Actor for Jack Nicholson, Best Sound, and Best Film Editing. At the 1993 Golden Globes, it was nominated for Best Picture Drama, Best Director, Best Lead Actor in a Drama for Cruise, Best Supporting Actor in a Drama for Nicholson and Best Screenplay for Sorkin. At the 1993 MTV Movie Awards, its one kind of major win was Best Movie of the Year at the 19— at the MTV Movie Awards that year. But it was also nominated for Best Female Performance for Demi Moore. Both, both Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson were nominated for Best Male Performance. Cruise was also nominated for Most Desirable Male, while Nicholson also netted a nomination for Best Villain.

Nic

All right.

Steve

On a $40 million budget, which I feel like went half Or more to the cast. It earned $243.2 million at the box office, 6 times what it cost. So by all measures, an absolute smash hit. And that, uh, those are the facts on A Few Good Men. All right, let's jump in.

Nic

Yeah, let's get it started. So, uh, we're kicking off, we're in, uh, the U.S. military base at Guantanamo Bay at night. There's very ominous music playing, and we kind of see a couple of, uh, a couple soldiers there in the shadows. Who grab a 3rd soldier out of his bunk. And, uh, and they start, you know, they grab him, they, uh, shove a rag in his mouth, they duct tape around his head and stuff. And, you know, they're really roughing him up. So we get that very, like, intense scene to kick us off. We don't get a resolution to it. They're just like, they grab this guy.

Steve

They're fucking that boy up.

Nic

And then, uh, and then it flashes to an American flag and then, like, the crispiest dressed military people I've ever seen. Doing the coolest. This is like the Marines color guard or something like that, or it is called the Marine Silent Drill Patrol.

Steve

Okay, or platoon rather. Excuse me, the Marine Silent Drill Platoon. The silent drill is the name of that activity where they're spinning the rifles and stomping and doing the different kind of choreographed things. The reason it's called silent drill is that there are no instructions barked by anyone. Like a lot of times when soldiers drill, they're being led by like a drill sergeant or something, right? You know, oop, oop, oop, like all that stuff. So there's no vocal indicators of sequencing or synchronicity in the silent drill. It just has to be choreographed and practiced so much that they're able to just do it. And the official kind of, you know, there is an ultimate sort of level of this, which is to be assigned to the Marine Silent Drill Platoon. And that is literally who this is. These were not actors. These were not people trained to do this. It would have taken way too long.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So they got the real guys to come and do it. And it really is very cool.

Jeanie

It is really cool.

Steve

Absolutely.

Nic

Kind of a waste of like a skilled military guy, though. You're like, hey, we could kill Osama bin Laden, but our best guy's twirling a rifle right now. Wow.

Steve

See, this just belies your misunderstanding of the military, man. That was the Navy. Those were the SEALs. Come on, man. These are the Marines. Anyway, so we are, yeah, we are at the JAG Corps offices in Washington, D.C. The JAG Corps, the Navy Judge Advocate General, which is basically the lawyers for like all the military practically. And yeah, we're meeting, I think we initially meet Jo Galloway, Lieutenant Commander Jo Galloway, played by Demi Moore. And she is bringing to the attention of her superiors that something has happened at Guantanamo Bay.

Nic

Yes. And, uh, and she's kind of telling the story. The information that she knows is there's been a, uh, a private who's stationed there, uh, named, uh, Willie— William Santiago.

Steve

Right.

Nic

Right. And, uh, and he's died, um, and they're trying to investigate the circumstances around his death. And what she says is that, you know, from what I hear, this sounds like a code red. It kind of explains what that is, you know, that this is, uh, an unofficial disciplinary technique that they would use in military circles to kind of keep the soldiers in line. Like, it could never be signed off on by the military officially, but this is like, you know, we're the ones who do what you gotta do to get the job done kind of shit, right? So, and, you know, this is upsetting. The brass does not want to hear about this. Like, they— I don't want you to come in my office talking about no code red.

Steve

No, exactly.

Nic

You know, so, uh, so they don't want her involved in this very much.

Steve

Well, it's funny because they say like, you know, hey, uh, could you like leave the room or whatever? She's like, well, I'd really rather not. He's like, well, I'd really like you to leave so we can talk about you behind your back. At least he's honest to her. And of course— and Jeanie, I want your opinion on this, he says, you know, he tells— the commanding officer tells Joe, well, the right man for the job will be assigned. I think it was a very pointed way to say it.

Jeanie

Yeah, sure, absolutely.

Nic

Well, G.I. Jane hadn't introduced the concept of women in the military yet when this movie came out.

Steve

She'll get there eventually. Demi always leads the way.

Nic

Yeah, so, you know, they're kind of pushing her away from him. And now we get, we get to We see Tom Cruise's character, right? Uh, Caffey. And he is, uh, doing batting practice. He's looking cool as hell, uh, hitting some BP out to his softball teammates and everything. He's the defense attorney, right? Right.

Steve

And I'm assuming either the shortstop or the second baseman because he's— has to be, right?

Nic

He is very Dustin Pedroia-ish.

Steve

Yeah, I was thinking, you know, I was thinking David Eckstein, but yeah. So much grit, so much, so much grit and hustle. Yeah, but he's out there practicing basically.

Nic

And he's bargaining for his client, like, as somebody approaches him, right?

Steve

Right, yeah, there's some other lawyer who I think is a guy that we've seen in stuff too. I recognized it, but I didn't wanna like look him up. But basically like, yeah, he like argues for, you know, a plea deal and like, you know, a lesser sentence and all this stuff. All I'll say though for sure is that Tom Cruise's swing is dogshit. Like, he cannot hit for shit. Like, it is really quite ugly. It is, you can see when someone swings a baseball bat whether they grew up being yelled at at by somebody else's dad about how to swing better and played a lot of Little League, or if you never got yelled at like that as a kid. And I can tell that Tom Cruise was not yelled at when it comes to a baseball diamond. Like, he— somebody needs to scream at that boy much, much more vociferously about, like, not looking like a fucking hitching robot while you swing. It's really bad.

Jeanie

Oh, see, I did not notice that.

Steve

Oh no, it's bad.

Nic

Are there any famous Scientologist athletes? I'd like to know if they're— like, I don't really hear that much. They're mostly actors. You don't get— you don't get a lot of, like, You know, too many— like, Trout is a Scientologist or anything.

Steve

Too many white pro athletes are like dyed-in-the-wool hunting camo Christians, so it's kind of like hard for them to also be Scientologists.

Nic

So yeah, no room. I, I just worship gun Jesus.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

Um, so, so he ends up successfully— what we see here is that Caffey is like successfully bargaining for his client. He's quick and he's kind of known as the plea bargain guy, right? Yes, right.

Steve

So we get that laid out, uh, Is this where we hear about Lionel Caffey, or is that a little later? It's 'cause I wanna call out when that happens.

Nic

A little later.

Steve

Remind me when we get there, 'cause Jesus Christ. Anyway, yes, but then we cut to his superior, it seems, who is, all I know for sure is the guy who betrayed Harrison Ford on Air Force One.

Nic

Also Todd, the stepdad from Terminator 2.

Steve

Oh, that's right, he is Todd.

Nic

Stabbed through the throat while he's drinking milk out of the carton.

Steve

Wolfie's just fine, Wolfie's just fine. But he's there, and so we meet Sam Weinberg, who works with Danny Caffey. Caffey is Tom Cruise's character. Sam Weinberg is, uh, Kevin Pollak. And we're told that he, you know, like has a new baby. Oh, baby's gonna talk any day now, whatever. I think they think the baby's under 1. I'm like, I mean, come on.

Nic

Yeah, baby's not talking at 1.

Steve

What are you talking about?

Nic

Look, parents, I will say this overall, like, for your kid to officially talk, it needs to be able to be understood by a stranger.

Steve

Yes, exactly.

Nic

Like, if you say like, oh yeah, he totally said daddy, that's a dog. And it's like, no, he, he has a bubble coming out of his mouth right now. He's not saying that shit yet.

Steve

I understood my cat. At times. Yeah, that doesn't mean anybody else does. It doesn't mean the cat can talk. It just means I understood them. Like, yeah, yeah.

Nic

Um, so they're gonna get assigned to the case, and, and do not want to be involved in this, really. He's just like, what the fuck? You're giving me this, you know, murder case, or at least a case with a death on it, right? Uh, he's like—.

Steve

He—.

Nic

And we find out Caffey, uh, has been in the Navy for only 9 months.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

He's known for his plea bargaining. Uh, you could tell he's very casual about what he does because he's eating an apple in like the most arrogant way during this whole scene.

Jeanie

Yeah, I hated I hated his eating the apple. I really just— it was so rude of him.

Steve

Is there ever a good point where— is there ever a good point on screen where you're hearing and seeing someone eat?

Jeanie

No.

Nic

No.

Jeanie

No.

Steve

Yeah, I don't think that's ever—.

Jeanie

And no, finish your apple before your interview. Just— this is— no, just finish it.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And he spends half the time— he's meeting Jo, Demi Moore's character, and he spends half the time asking if he's done something wrong. I'm like, are you a child? Like, why do you keep asking that? Like, are you hitting on her? Like, I don't get what's going on here. Like, Also, are there hair?

Nic

Maybe. Are there snacks in the military? It seems like it's it's pretty regimented, right? I mean, he has a loose affiliation. He's not like a real like the military.

Steve

I would imagine if you're stationed at Guantanamo Bay or or maybe on the fence line in South Korea, the DMZ. Yeah, probably not so much snacking, crunching apples. You know, you're not bringing your your your you know happy Nature Valley bar out with you because popcorn. Yeah, maybe less than. But if you're at the if you're at the Jag Corps lawyers' offices in D.C., yeah, I don't think it matters. They probably got a vending machine or two.

Nic

You know, they get a bowl full of fruit.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. So he's just grabbing that. So basically they're getting information from Joe about the situation that basically that she thinks that, you know, yes, the basically that the Marines accused these guys, Dawson and Downey, Harold W. Dawson and Loudon Downey, basically are not— they're not challenging like the facts of what's going on, of what happened. Like what happened happened. They do make mention, Joe does, of like there's a medical examiner who, or a doctor or whatever, that's, you know, initially didn't say anything, but then like hours after declaring the The antecedent dead, like said there could have been poison, or they thought that the cause of death included a poison element. Right? But it came later, and it's sort of like whatever. And Dawson, Dawson, and I'm gonna say Dawson and Donnie over and over again.

Nic

But those two are your element, Dawson.

Steve

Those two are like, "No, we didn't like poison a rag. That's crazy." This was like whatever. So you know, to her, this seems like a very like there's a lot of nuance here. Like that we got to figure out what's wrong. And all Kathy's hearing is like plea bargain. Yeah, I'll give him 12 years. It'll be fine.

Nic

Because he doesn't even see this as, as like a dead guy and 2 guys on trial. He's just like, oh, what, that's normally 20 years? Yeah, I'll get you, I'll get you half that, and that makes me awesome.

Steve

Exactly right. That makes me good at my job. Yeah.

Nic

So, uh, we get kind of a cool scene. So, um, so Caffey and Sam are gonna go off to Cuba. Yeah, because they've been assigned to this case. They have to do some looking around, and then we get a, uh, flashback where it's a voiceover of Santiago reading this letter, right, that he had written to the top brass saying, you know, I'm not safe here, like, I need to get out of here. And indicating too that this is not the first time I've said this, like, I'm trying to get out of here, uh, you know, I fear for my danger, I'm not up to this. Also, there was an errant shot fired, like, at the fence line that I have information about if you're able to transfer me out.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Nic

Uh, and we get this whole You know, we get to see him kind of struggling during the runs and everything, and and being brought from behind. So yeah, pretty pretty effective, I think. And then we get a meeting of the of the brass, which we get introduced to Colonel Jessup for the first time, Jack Nicholson, who's there with Kiefer Sutherland, who is John John Kendrick Jonathan Kendricks Kendrick Lieutenant Kendricks, and then and then J.T. Walsh, Matthew McConaughey.

Steve

Markinson.

Nic

Markinson.

Steve

Colonel Markinson. He is a lieutenant colonel, so a step below of the full bird colonel that Jessup is. But yeah, Colonel Markinson is the XO, or executive officer, for Rifle Security Company Windward there at Guantanamo Bay. And Jessup's in charge, and then Kendrick is like next in line basically, which is like a little odd because there's a lot of ranks between lieutenant colonel and lieutenant. Like many, many. But supposedly he's the next sort of like, I don't know, platoon or battalion. I can't remember which size is which, but like he's in charge of Dawson and Downey and Santiago basically. And so, you know, Jessup, you know, Markinson suggests, hey, we should probably transfer him. Like, people are gonna find out there's a leak and he's gonna get in trouble. Like, we should just go ahead and transfer him. And Jessup's like, no, like, we should train him. Like, he makes an argument that is clearly like a bullshit, I'm gonna make an argument because I've already decided like what I think is right. But he kind of tries to make this argument about like, well, if we ship him off to some other Marine base somewhere and he's not up to par as a Marine, that just puts other people in danger and we are not doing our jobs to train him if we do that, which is—.

Nic

Which is, I mean, he's kind of making like the pedophile priest argument. A little bit. Like, look, Santiago, there's a million things he could do in the Marines. The Marines do a ton of things, so he doesn't have to be at the like highest leverage position, right? You know, so yeah, there's plenty of shit he could fucking do.

Steve

Although I think enlisted Marines are pretty generally riflemen, I think though. Like, I think it's officers, it's a different thing. But like, there is kind of a thing where there is a base level of— he probably shouldn't be a Marine. Like, to be totally honest, Willie Santiago probably should go home. Yeah, he should probably be discharged and sent home. He probably shouldn't be a U.S. Marine. And that sucks. What he shouldn't be is fucking killed for it. So, like, there is that. But yeah, so basically Jessup decides, no, Santiago stays. And then we get this sort of, like, struggle moment between Jessup and Markinson where, you know, they— he gives— Jessup gives us a little background about, like, oh, we came up together through the, you know, academy and through whatever. We got commissioned together. And yet I've risen in the ranks faster. Honestly, not that much. It's not like the dude's still, like, Lieutenant Commander Markinson. He's fucking Lieutenant Colonel Markinson. Like, he's right there, you know?

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

But he's like, you know, if that's a problem for you, like, I'm so sorry, you know, all that. That shit. But basically we get the idea Markinson's got a little bit of scruples, Jessup has fucking none, and that's the kind of struggle between those 2 officers on base.

Nic

And, and what we're left with is the decision is Jessup doesn't want him transferred out of there.

Steve

He will stay. So, yep.

Nic

And, and he reprimands Markinson for questioning his authority in front of Kiefer, which you don't do that. No, I mean, I know that. I'm not in the Marines. I know you don't do that.

Steve

Have Kiefer Sutherland's ears always looked that fucked up, or does he just usually have longer hair? Because they look fucked up in this movie.

Jeanie

Think they're always that way.

Steve

I would assume they probably have to be, but I guess he just has longer hair and other because it's really high and tight. He's got like completely shaved sides. You know the real buzz cut, but they're like very oddly folded or something.

Jeanie

Something about dad had those ears too.

Steve

Really? Okay.

Jeanie

Anything like just just big weird ears?

Steve

Yeah. They must always have longer hair because I've never noticed it on any of the.

Nic

Yeah. I can absolutely have for Sutherland ears now.

Steve

It's like the opposite of cauliflower ears. They look like pasted down instead of like bulky up.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Nic

Um, so we, we kind of flash back to the present. Okay, we've got, we got Dawson and Downey, who are the 2 Marines that are arrested, and they're in cuffs.

Steve

They're being taken out of, you know, they've arrived in DC to meet their lawyer.

Nic

Dawson is, um, like higher ranking than Downey, right?

Steve

Corporal.

Nic

Yeah, so he's, he's like sees over this other guy. He's more with it. He's more calm. He's more like just dealing with what's happening. And Downey is very much like what you'd expect to be like a young kid who's in the military, and he's like, oh gee whiz, what's happening here?

Steve

Well, and Dawson also clearly like is just smarter. Like Dawson as a person clearly has like a higher IQ than Downey.

Jeanie

Yeah, Downey seems like a dummy.

Steve

He needs help, you know, like just kind of even to understand what's going on. And he's clearly latched on to his lance corporal. It would be like somebody that he would take orders from and look up to. And has taken on to like kind of being with him and like following his lead. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, Boy Downey really does not know what's happening to him at all in this.

Nic

It is almost like he's almost like unfit for trial in a way. Like it's very, very close.

Steve

He really doesn't. If you if you make that, if you separate the two guys, oh yeah. And that's the thing too is actually when we get to the end of it, like Downey really shouldn't. Nothing should happen to Downey at the end. We'll get there. But like I'm actually fucking real bad for that guy. Anyway, so yeah. So they're there. They arrive and they. They meet. Oh, we get a little— we get more softball, basically. We go back to the softball field. Tom Cruise is, you know, Danny Caffey is playing softball again, practicing. And this time Joe shows up to be more, and she's like, why are you here on the softball field and your clients are sitting in a jail cell? Like, they arrived this morning, they're just waiting for their lawyer, and you're here, you know?

Jeanie

And he—.

Steve

And he says, we need to practice. There's a lot of flirting, basically, is all it really is.

Nic

Yeah, yeah. So he's good. He fires off some good jokes. And then I like that, you know, he's telling her, like, when he'll make a joke, he'll be like, That was a good one. You got to admit, he's very confident here. This is good. He might negotiate himself a little plea bargain into her pants before this thing is—.

Steve

Maybe. Let's ask Jeanie. Is there— is there anything sexier than a man telling you you should laugh?

Jeanie

No.

Steve

Keep going. I just thought that's what everybody wants. Everyone wants to hear is like, hey, that was funny.

Nic

Yeah, people don't get this.

Jeanie

When I don't naturally laugh, I love when someone tells me I should be laughing.

Steve

It's like all the best jokes have to be explained. Everybody knows that.

Jeanie

Yeah, totally.

Nic

The explanation is kind of the funniest part of this joke. Yeah. So then Demi, and she's talking about, uh, she knows a lot about Caffey.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So she's rattling off like a Nardwuar level of knowledge about his life, which is really funny. Um, and she's kind of telling him like, yeah, she is very stalkerish. Yeah, it's odd that she goes home and just studies his trash, you know, when he's getting good at softball.

Steve

So this is when we learn about Lionel Caffey, right? Yeah, his father. So his father was a Judge Advocate General lawyer, eventually the Attorney General, also Harvard Law School. Like, so basically Caffey's following— so this is what I realized watching this this time. I'd never noticed this before, but Daniel Caffey, Danny Caffey, is the nerdy Pete Maverick Mitchell.

Jeanie

Hmm.

Steve

The characters have the exact same wound. Pete Mitchell's father, Duke Mitchell, was a fantastically celebrated naval aviator. And so Pete Mitchell becomes a naval aviator, constantly trying to live up to his father's, you know, history and resume. Same thing. Lionel Caffey is a hugely celebrated JAG lawyer and eventually the Attorney General of the United States. And so Danny Caffey, you know, goes into being a JAG lawyer as well and constantly living up to this, like, standard that his dead father set. So this concept of Tom Cruise playing these like characters with dead fathers who did the exact same job they now do, but they're trying to live up, like it's not unique to this movie or to Top Gun. I looked really hard to find another one, I couldn't. I really wanted there to be a third example. The closest is The Color of Money, but that's a mentorship, not a father thing. And, you know, I don't know, maybe Cole Trickle had a dead dad, I don't remember. But anyway, so yeah, I just thought it was really interesting that these 2 characters have the exact same wound.

Nic

Yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah, and and she knows so she knows all about she kind of knows then which buttons she can push on him like what's going to activate him.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And and Joe asks him she knows what a code red is.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And you know then we get we get Caffey asking the Marines about the code red.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

He's asking the Dawson and Downey. Yeah. And their explanation of I mean again like Dawson is just so like yeah he gives you exactly what you are looking for.

Steve

Like textbook definition.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

The answer is perfect.

Nic

And they weren't squirrely about it at all.

Jeanie

No. Because they weren't like oh we're not supposed to talk about that.

Nic

Like, these guys are pretty, pretty solid. Like you said, they're not disputing the facts of the case the entire time.

Steve

And it seems like every, uh, sort of, you know, rank-and-file, like, enlisted member who talks about code reds, they, they don't— there's never any, uh, fear, or like, they never talk about them like they're a bad thing, you know what I mean? It's like there's definitely no element of like, oh, like the code red, oh, we don't do that. Like, we get officers that say, oh yeah, yeah, that's not official, we never do that, we never order. But like, all of the enlisted that say— that talk about this, they talk about it like it's just another thing. It's perfectly normal. There's no weirdness about it. So the idea, right, that they would view it as something that just gets done sometimes clearly, you know, tracks with everything that we're hearing. Um, yeah.

Nic

And, uh, and, you know, they go to explain, uh, when they're telling Kathy about what happened, they say, you know, we taped up his mouth, we gagged him, and then we noticed he was like coughing and there was blood coming out, so we untaped him and then we called the ambulance. So again, they didn't leave this guy to die. They did a thing they thought was going to be far less impactful than it was and then tried to, tried to save him at the end. Of it, right?

Steve

Yeah. Um, yeah, they make a big point later about Dawson and Downey calling the ambulance, that, that, you know, yeah, should matter, basically.

Nic

Uh, and, and they're asked why, you know, why was this done then? Yeah, he's like, well, Santiago broke the chain of command. And, and then he gives, uh, Caffey the whole unit, Corps, God, country. This is our code, right? That the priorities that you have to have as a Marine is your unit, the Marine Corps, God, and then your country, right? And, uh, and Caffey is not into any of it. No, because he doesn't really speak a language of like nuance. Like, he's just like, okay, how— what, what can I do to chisel exactly 3 years off the proposed sentence here?

Steve

That's all he wants to do.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Nic

Um, so he doesn't like that. So these guys are at each other. Like, Dawson and Caffey are not, not cool with each other here.

Steve

Absolutely. Um, so next move Caffey has to make is go talk to Jack Ross, who is the prosecuting attorney for this, for the government. Played by Kevin Bacon, who we welcome back to the podcast. And Bacon right off the bat offers 12 years, right? Right off the bat offers 12 years. And then before, you know, and then basically Sam's like, well, or Danny's like, well, I'm gonna go to Cuba and I'm gonna talk to the CEO out there and I'll let you know what I think or whatever. And he asks Ross, you know, you ever heard of a code red? And Ross's demeanor changes significantly at this point. And he says something about like, Uh, you know, Lieutenant Kendrick told those men to not touch Santiago. And Caffey kind of goes, huh, that's interesting information, right? Um, and I think, I think Ross even offers like a shorter sentence, or maybe that's when he says 12. It's like he kind of really kind of—.

Nic

I think from 20 to 12.

Steve

That's maybe what it was, right? And it's like without having to argue, which Caffey sees as suspicious, appropriately.

Nic

Yeah, like they're very aware of the publicity that this, you know, they're not trying to be like, we treat every single Marine the same because, you know, we're all the same here. It's very much like, Okay, this is gonna look very bad for us, so maybe these guys get a little less punishment for doing what they did. So, so they're gonna go to Cuba again and talk to everybody, but this time Joe's coming to them. Yeah, and the way that Joe is able to kind of weasel her way onto the case is she's been talking to Dawson and Downey and getting information. And I guess Dawson, like, he's got a family and stuff. Downey only has really one next of kin that they can identify, some aunt somewhere, and Joe was able to like Get in enough that his family was able to authorize her to be his attorney.

Steve

Aunt Jenny decided that, uh, you know, feel like— she said she feels like she's known me forever and wants me to be Loudon's attorney. And so now she's officially on the case. So, so just to make sure we're clear about the logistics here, Caffey was assigned as lead counsel by division, which I guess is like the head honcho bastards, whatever, with Sam as an assistant, uh, assistant counsel. And then now that Joe is, is as part of, you know, as Downey's attorney officially. She's also on the case. I think she was trying to just be like an investigator, 'cause she's like internal affairs, basically.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Steve

She's like an internal investigator. But now she has the right to actually like be in the courtroom and like be everywhere that they are. And so that's how we sort of have 3 attorneys all kind of working one case together, which I don't think is all that common. I do remember there's a point, Caffey goes to talk to Sam before they head off to Cuba. They're chatting for a bit, and he mentions like Ross, you know, with the deal and then the code red. And, you know, he's telling Sam how he thinks it's suspicious. And he's like, I never mentioned Kendrick. Why do you mention Kendrick? And then Sam says, Hey, we're going to Cuba. It's hot. Make sure you wear the whites. And he goes, I fucking hate wearing the whites, man. He goes, it's like 100 degrees. Like, you better wear it, you know? So I love, 'cause then when they all arrive in Cuba and get off the plane, Sam and Caffey are wearing their whites and Joe is wearing much more reasonable, like, tan khaki, you know, whatever. I think they call them like Class Bs or something like that, like the other kind of uniform. And that's when they meet Noah Wiley.

Nic

That's right.

Steve

Who's gonna give them a ride.

Nic

Dr. Pitt himself.

Steve

That's right. Give him a ride to the— Dr. Robbie's gonna give him a ride to the base. And he says, you might want to throw these camo jackets on. The Cubans see somebody in a white uniform, they figure they might want to take a shot.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Nic

And then they put their camo jackets on, but they're still wearing the white hats.

Jeanie

Yeah, I know, the hats. Yeah, why? Yeah.

Steve

Which is like, now you're just giving them a better headshot target, right?

Nic

Yeah, exactly. Also, give me the fucking statistics for how many times the Cubans ever shot at an American soldier over that fence, please.

Steve

Cannot be very many. Cannot be many.

Nic

So, so now we've got a meeting, right?

Steve

Yes.

Nic

So we've got Caffey, we've got Sam, we've got Joe, and they're gonna meet Jessup, Markinson, and Kendrick.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

We've got kind of the, the big dogs who are not on trial in this movie all meeting with each other.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Uh, and they know— the, the military officers know Caffey's dad. They know about him.

Steve

He was Attorney General.

Nic

Yeah. That's the deal. Uh, and, and it's— again, this is a great part that gives you a lot of information without explaining it. Yeah. The way that, uh, Jessup, Jack Nicholson's character, talks about, oh, Lionel Caffey, yeah, there's some, uh, rednecks who didn't want to let, uh, the school get integrated down in your neck of the woods, Kendrick.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And Kiefer Sutherland is just making white supremacist face during that, dude. It is crazy good, like, how much info you get without him specifically explaining any of it. It was just like, oh, I know based on where you're from, like, this This is something you did not like when it happened.

Steve

You're Edward Norton in American History X, the first half.

Jeanie

Yeah, literally.

Steve

The first half of the movie. But I do love too, there's a great Nicholson line here where he's talking about like Lionel Caffey. Oh, Lionel Caffey, yeah. You know, it's like, how is your father, Danny? And he goes, oh, he died a few years ago. And he looks at him and goes, don't I feel like a fucking asshole? But they decide to give him a tour, right? And so Kendrick shows them around and they go to Santiago's bunk and they're able to look around and they think, you know, The pieces that we're supposed to kind of recognize here from the scene is the bloodstains, like there's all over the pillow. Like, it's a lot of blood. It was not like a simple thing, you know? And then of course, Caffey looks in his footlocker in his closet and all of his stuff is lined up. His clothes are all there. And he says, hey Sam, we should make sure we get this, you know, back to Santiago's family. It's his personal private property or whatever.

Nic

There's tape. There's like police tape.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

But it says military police line, do not cross.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

I love that they have their own tape. On the base, like, would the non-military police have taping authority in that area?

Steve

Not in Cuba.

Jeanie

Yeah, right.

Steve

The Cuban police certainly don't.

Nic

I just love that. How much are we spending on custom yellow tape? I want to see that line item.

Steve

Each roll costs $500,000. Yeah, exactly. It's the fucking military. Um, but then they decided— then they have lunch, and so it's all 6 of them out, uh, you know, uh, out in the heat. Apparently they keep talking about how hot it is, and yet we're gonna sit outside to have lunch. Yeah, interesting choice. Um, and Jessup tells them, A, that, you know, he told Kendrick to tell the men not to touch Santiago after the letter was revealed. And then he offered, you know, he transferred— put in an order to transfer Santiago off base, and that he was scheduled to be transferred to the next flight, which was at 0600 the next day when all this happened. And I love when Caffey, you know, they get up to go— well, it's funny, they're gonna get up to go, and Joe decides to really push a line of questioning that pisses Jessup off.

Jeanie

Mm-hmm.

Steve

And it's clear neither Sam or Caffey wanted this to happen. But she, you know, is feeling very like, I would not gonna fucking leave here without getting some answers. Um, she doesn't actually get any because Jessup's smart enough to not really tip his hat.

Jeanie

It was a bad move.

Steve

It was, it was, it was certainly impulsive, it seemed, right?

Jeanie

Yeah, not, not well thought out.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

And he— and everyone is trying to rush Joe. I mean, how many times does this happen just in life where you're somewhere and you're like, dude, we're all willing to let this go, but we have this one fucking friend who I know is not gonna let it go? And they're making us embarrassed here. So Jo— and Jo is doing a hell of a job. She's the only one doing her job here, right? But then, uh, Jessup changes the whole tone of it where he's like completely disrespects her line of questioning and then just starts talking about, uh, uh, you ever get a blowjob from a commanding officer?

Steve

Oh God.

Nic

Ah, there's nothing better than that. Oh, for me to do it, they have to elect a lady president. Like, That's a, that's a hard-ass line. Yeah, it's, um, but man, he flips on her. Like, they do not respect her at all.

Steve

Nope. No, it's fair. Jessup doesn't respect anybody. He extra, extra disrespects her though.

Nic

Like, when, uh, right before this, I think when they're still looking at Santiago's room and Caffey says to Kendrick, he says, uh, Lieutenant Kendrick, may I call you John? He's like, no, you may not. I like— I loved how Matty is there. And then he's like, oh, do you have any problem with me? He's like, Nope. He's like, you know, every time us Marines got somewhere to go fight, you Navy boys give us a ride.

Steve

I like the Navy. Um, but yeah, before they actually do leave, uh, Caffey just very casually is kind of like, uh, I'll just need that, uh, transfer order. You want to go ahead and send that over? That'd be great. Could you send that to me? And he, you know, Jessup kind of flinches or whatever, and he, of course, you know, but like, I mean, it takes a moment and, and it's, you know, Caffey is gathering little bits of info that again, we've talked a few times You know, recently on episodes of like, uh, movies doing a good job of like planting things that, you know, the first time you watch through you might notice, but you might also just kind of like dismiss. Like they're not moments, but then when they come back later you're like, oh shit, like they totally set that up. And this is kind of one of those moments.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Steve

Um, which is great.

Nic

Yeah, we get the famous, uh, I eat breakfast 300 yards from 4,000 Cubans that are trained to kill me. And then he takes like the most satisfied cigar puff I've ever seen.

Steve

Yeah, it's a lot.

Nic

Nicholson is so good.

Steve

Yeah, it's a lot. It's a real testament to both the script and to Nicholson as an actor that we get such a crystal clear view of who Nathan Jessop is in not very much time, right? Like, even if you count the earlier scene he was in, to this point, he's been on screen for like 6 or 7 of the maybe 40 to 45 minutes into the movie we are. And we know exactly who this man is. We know where he's been. We know where he's going. We know what— we get a sense of what he's done, even if we're not 100% sure. Like, we kind of feel like we know. Just such really great work, both, uh, both in the writing and the acting.

Jeanie

Yes, I think they have— all the characters are kind of like that. Yeah, I mean, the main characters, I feel like you get that with all of them. They're all just so good. Yeah, dialogue, everything is just— yeah.

Nic

Well, you can understand like the anxieties of the legal team too. And, you know, like Sam having his kid, like they just— they don't spend a lot of time, but they set him up as like, this is his life and this is how he feels about the case early on. Like Sam is not really psyched about defending these guys because he's saying, like, they picked on a weaker kid, right? Yeah. So that's his position.

Jeanie

Painting the picture of everybody.

Steve

I think, too, this is a thing where I know you can obviously hear the difference when the characters talk because you're hearing the different actors saying whatever. But there's this concept of if you're reading a screenplay, being able to tell who's speaking without looking at the name, right? If you just— if you're just given the lines of the different characters, you'd see how you'd be able to tell them apart. And that's absolutely true, I think, of this. I think all, you know, especially the characters we get a lot There is no way you would mistake the, like, natural cadence and vocabulary choices that, like, Jessup and Kendrick and Caffey and Sam and Joe use. They're all so unique and different. Their styles are different and everything. And that's, again, that's the thing that just, you know, Sorkin is among the best in the world, in the history of cinema, at doing, is really differentiating his characters through dialogue. Yeah. And this is a great example of it.

Nic

So we find out now we're at We're at Danny's house, and Joe is letting, uh, Danny know that Markinson has disappeared.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

Right. So he was a very important witness to our case, you know, and I don't know if he'd even agreed yet, but just a guy that was very important to the situation.

Steve

And they had planned on talking to him more, for sure. They were like, well, we're gonna interview him some more, because there was like a difference in the way he reacted to like the way Kendrick and Jessup were. They spotted that.

Nic

Yeah. Yes. And, and one of those things where it's like, oh, this guy spent 25 years in Special Forces or whatever, like he's a ghost. Like, he's not gonna— he's not gonna come back unless he wants to be seen. And then I think Jo is—.

Steve

Let's see. Well, this is when she actually confirms she's officially on, is officially Downey's attorney. And, you know, basically they, they go and they ask Dawson and Downey, like, were you ordered to give a code red by Lieutenant Kendrick? And Dawson's like, yes, we were. And he's like, did you fucking think of telling your lawyer that? Like, he's like, you didn't ask. And it's like, true, but come on, pretty important part of the story. Yeah, a little self-preservation instinct would have helped Harold W. Dawson to at least say, like, yes, that was my order. That was what happened. Yes, that's what a code red is. And oh, by the way, my superior officer told me to do it.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Nic

Yeah. He's not helping himself at all.

Steve

I mean, maybe he's just a really intelligent student of history and knew that the Nuremberg Defense just wasn't gonna help him out. That might have been it.

Nic

Uh, so now we're back with, uh, we got Kevin Bacon, Ross, and, uh, and Caffey were playing hoops together and kind of talking about the case. And this is where Ross is kind of really affected by— he's been been pressured by the brass that, look, we need this to not go to fucking trial is what we need. So he's now offering 2 years, uh, to, to Dawson and Downey. They'll be home in 6 months.

Steve

Yep, exactly.

Nic

And what kind of fucking Kohl's pricing on a prison sentence is that, by the way?

Steve

It's interesting too, because if you're, you know, the military prison is obviously by definition a federal, you know, corrections outfit, right? And in federal, if you're a civilian who commits a federal crime and goes to federal prison, there is no You don't get out half the time. The parole doesn't work like that in federal crimes. And yet in the military, they're like, it's not even half. You'll do like a fourth of your time. It's like, why do you bother at that point?

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

But I think it's partly maybe because the additional punishment is the dishonorable discharge. So it's like, yeah, after you're done serving your time, now you're not only not in the military, you'll never get a military pension. You'll never, you know, you get stripped of any medals that you were awarded. Like all this kind of stuff when you get dishonorably discharged.

Nic

These guys are young though. It's like, oh, you're not gonna get a pension for the year and a half you've been in already?

Steve

Time served, man.

Nic

Do something else. Um, so, so the, um, this is super exciting to Caffey. Yeah, he's like, 2 years, fucking dude, I am the greatest lawyer that's ever lived. Check it out, guys, listen to what I got for you. 2 years, you'll be out in 6 months.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And Dawson's just like, no, like, we can't take a deal. Like, I am not gonna admit that I did something wrong. I'll stand there and whatever consequences I face in trial, I'm there for, but I'm not going to I'm not gonna admit to this, which is yeah, yeah. And Cap hates this shit.

Steve

He does.

Nic

He can't deal.

Steve

But it's like hard to argue against somebody who's like, look, if I get wrongfully imprisoned, I will live with that more easily than I will admitting to a crime I didn't commit. I get it. Like I'm not saying that's the choice I would make, but I got kids.

Jeanie

That's right. I could be tough. Yeah.

Steve

When you're in your early twenties and you kind of you know your responsibilities pretty much don't extend beyond yourself. Like yeah, I could see being somebody who's like, no fuck that. I'm not gonna. Just cop to something I didn't do.

Nic

Sure, you know, especially someone who— like, the Marine Corps is the thing that Hal values more, that Dawson values more than anything else in the world. And there are definitely situations where, like, your integrity is more important than your life, and you can decide where to draw that line. So, I mean, he's already willing to die for whatever Marine Corps shit he's doing. So, um, yeah, but fucking Caffey is so pissed at this.

Steve

Right. So he kind of ponders about it, but then he does show up that next morning, right? It's like, like Sam and Joe are waiting in the courthouse, and now—.

Nic

And the pretrial hearing's like about to start. He walks in kind of at the— or the arraignment— he walks in at the last minute.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So they enter their not guilty plea, and we've got 3 weeks now until the trial begins.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. Um, and then I've got a note here, and you're gonna have to help me with this. I literally don't know why I wrote this. Realizes he was set up.

Jeanie

Yes.

Nic

So this is where— this is where Caffey is kind of like Oh my God, they put me on this case because I'm inexperienced and I love to plea bargain. Like, the fact that basically the fact that they put me on the case makes me suspicious about the case. Interesting. Because I am not the guy for it. Yeah, right.

Steve

Like, they should have a trial lawyer with like a lot more experience.

Nic

Exactly. Like, if, if they didn't want it to go a certain way, they would not have recommended me specifically for this case.

Jeanie

Yeah, it's getting more and more suspicious.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So he realizes, and then he's fired up, so he's like, all right, Here we go, guys. We're gonna start working on this case at my apartment.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

Every night, like, you know, 14-hour days, and all I have is Yoo-Hoo and Cocoa Puffs.

Steve

Oh, yeah. If you want anything else, bring it.

Nic

I do— I kind of feel like the real-life Tom Cruise had a stretch where, like, that was all he ate. Like, I think he probably most of his life has kind of one of those freak-ass, like, Tom Brady diets where he doesn't— well, he'll eat, like, one strawberry a month or whatever.

Steve

Like, non-inflammatory. Like, you gotta be real careful about stuff.

Nic

But I bet '80s Tom Cruise probably had a weird stretch where it was like someone had to explain to him that like, oh, Yoo-Hoo is actually not good for you. It's like, this stuff's amazing.

Steve

To be fair, Tom Cruise in the '80s while eating his Cocoa Puffs and drinking his Yoo-Hoo with a nose like that, you know, was sniffing the freaking candy. Like, I mean, that is a nose built for cocaine. So, but yeah, so, so yeah, so they're starting, they're meeting at Kathy's apartment. Sam and Danny are there first. And Sam kind of wants off the case. He says, hey, we know with Joe on this now, like, are you sure you need me still? And he's kind of like, look, like You're better at— he says basically you're better at investigating and you're better at preparing a witness. So it's like, what the fuck are you good for, Caffey? Like, you're not really good at any of this stuff.

Nic

I'm good at being the face of the trial team.

Steve

I'm good. I'm really good at having a dad who was attorney general once.

Nic

I'm good at name recognition.

Steve

Exactly. Um, but he basically is like, why do you want off? And this is kind of what you alluded to, you mentioned earlier, when he's like, oh, you know, they were supposed to protect people like this. Like, he's a weaker kid and they, regardless of like what happened, who told them, blah, blah, blah, like they shouldn't have done this. And they, then they should know that they shouldn't have done it. Yeah. Um, and then Joe shows up and they, uh, it starts with Chinese food.

Nic

Right out the package.

Steve

There's a— well, there's a real funny moment where she's like, I brought, uh, I brought paperwork and Chinese food. I suggest we eat first. And there's this moment where we don't know if Sam is about to, like, get up and say bye-bye. And he goes, got any kung pao chicken? Oh, you know what? I'm with you, Kevin Paula. Kung pao chicken, good as fuck.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Nic

Yeah, but I don't want someone else's— I mean, just get a plate. I don't want someone else's filthy chopsticks going in and out of it.

Jeanie

Yeah, nobody's like a couple. They're not really that— I mean, it is a little— yeah.

Steve

Pre-COVID, guys.

Nic

Come on.

Steve

Yeah, chill out.

Nic

Different world. Different world. We get kind of a montage here, like a non-song montage.

Steve

Well, I think there's like maybe a score behind it. It's not like you expect a pop song for a montage like this. You don't get one.

Nic

Like, yeah, we didn't get fucking Kenny Loggins to write a special song for this part, you know?

Steve

I thought we'd hear The Laws for a 4th time. Yeah.

Nic

So they're researching, and they're doing witness coaching, and brainstorming, and giving each other pep talks. And it's a really good montage.

Jeanie

It is.

Nic

Um, it doesn't, you know, it's not cheesy in any way really. It's just very effective. And then just the end, kind of like, all right, we're ready, we're ready to go, we're gonna kick ass. And, uh, Caffey's like, we're gonna get creamed. Like, because this whole time he thinks like, hey, I'm down for this, but this is not gonna work for us.

Steve

I mean, look, if you think about it, right, their clients aren't even disputing the facts. So it's like they have to accept that like their clients took actions, those actions led to a man dying. And they're not disputing that. So that's gonna be a hard sell for any lawyer. And now they're trying to kind of bring out this thing where they are kind of using the Nuremberg defense. They're trying to go with the, I was following orders, which, you know, does not have a crystal, you know, a clean bill of sort of like supportive legal precedent. You know what I mean? So that is definitely tough. I do love, I think it's Sam suggests that he wears matching socks. Was that, make sure you wear matching socks? It's like, it's just so weird. Thing to say, but yeah, very important.

Jeanie

Oh wait, that's Joe after—.

Steve

Oh, is that Joe? That's right.

Jeanie

After he's— because she says, oh hey, like she wants to talk to him, and then he goes on like, yeah, I know you like me now. Like he does this whole thing about, you know, and then she says that at the end. I think she's like, no, I was just gonna say wear matching socks.

Steve

Yeah, it's sort of like his— like he thinks they've got a Sam and Diane going on, and it's like Diane disagrees, basically.

Jeanie

Exactly.

Steve

Very funny stuff.

Nic

Um, and so now we're at the trial.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And the families are in attendance there. Uh, the prosecutor, Kevin Bacon Ross, has a sick flat top.

Steve

I mean, it's good.

Nic

It is a strong— it's as high as a flat top can be without like a certain amount of gel. Like, it's probably hairsprayed in place at least, or a completely different ethnicity.

Steve

Yeah, exactly.

Nic

He's, he's almost Kid 'n Play, uh, there. Um, there's a jury. How do you get out of jury duty in a military court?

Steve

You don't.

Nic

You can't just throw this thing away. I'm pretty sure they know where you're at.

Steve

I think that if you get—.

Nic

If you get called in, first of all, it's like, is it even called in, or are they just like, I'm bringing you now?

Steve

Well, they did say something. They said something during the montage about, about the composition of the jury and how they're, you know, it's 7 men, uh, 7 men, 2 women, and neither of the women have children, which is a bummer for us, but like, we've got to deal with it. Like, they were hoping for mothers to be there because they can make the argument about like, you know, Which is like, to me, that cuts both ways. Santiago had a mother too. But, you know, they were— they thought they could use that. So clearly there was some jury selection process that occurred. But maybe it's more random and/or less with the lawyers involved. I don't know, 'cause I don't know much how court-martials work. But it may not be a thing where they're spending, you know, days, if not weeks, like interviewing and then dismissing and then doing whatever. I don't know. But, you know, clearly we end up with this group. And it's like they even say that, like, they're from the different branches. There's like, there's Navy, there's Army, there's whatever. Yeah, there's a big variety.

Nic

So I wonder, like, who's in the pool And what can you get excused for? Because if it's like, hey, uh, Nic, uh, I know you were planning on being on the front lines, uh, in Iran in an unwinnable war, uh, this week, but we actually have a jury, uh, duty if you want to go sit in a courtroom. It's like, that sounds dope.

Steve

I'd be willing to bet forward deployment is a way out. Like, I think that probably negates—.

Nic

They're probably not yanking you back for it.

Steve

It's probably a lot of, like, officers there in DC, obviously, who are just kind of like other sort of desk-type people. It's probably what it is, but yeah. But yeah, so we get our— we get opening statements. So yeah, Ross, Jack Ross, Kevin Bacon basically makes the argument. He basically does what he should as the prosecutor, lays out the facts and says none of these facts are in dispute. Like, like, you know, the attorney— the defense is not going to dispute anything about what actually happened. What they're gonna say is that there's this thing called a code red and that this meant this and this meant that, and that's all bull, so ignore them or whatever. And then I think then we get— Caffey does an opening statement too, right?

Nic

Yeah. And I mean, kind of, uh, saying what he's gonna demonstrate. And then, you know, these guys were not to be touched.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Uh, and everything. So they were given orders, and he starts bringing his witnesses up, right? Uh, this is where we see Cuba Gooding Jr. Uh, oh yeah, we'll later see him in court as O.J.

Jeanie

In the O.J.

Nic

Miniseries about 20-something years later. Uh, yeah, and, you know, he's testifying. Yep, Santiago was— Santiago is not to be touched. And I guess they had like 22 other witnesses that were going to say the same thing.

Steve

Every member of the squad. Yeah.

Nic

Can we agree everyone's going to say the same shit? Like, we don't need to go through this.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So some good, like, gamesmanship going back and forth between Kevin Bacon and, and, uh, Tom Cruise. And when Bacon gives his opening statement, he even does the thing where he's like, the defense is gonna try to tell you that they were just following orders. And I, you know, I, I love where he did that. So this, like, this back and forth between the two of them is so, uh, enticing and it's so Yeah, it really draws you in throughout this scene here.

Steve

And we get a little bit more of like a more prep montage, a little bit. There's just like more kind of work that they're doing. And then we get the doctor, and this is played by Christopher Guest. And he is, you know, he's like a commander or something by rank, but he's the doctor that actually, you know, declared Santiago dead and then did the examination. And the key of this is that at like, what was it, like at 2:00 AM, he arrived and said that the cause of death was like inconclusive, or it was, or they could claim that he could tell it was the lactic acidosis, or whatever, but like the cause was inconclusive.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Steve

And then at 5 AM or 6 AM, 2 or 3 hours later, he's like, oh no, there was poison that sped up the lactic acidosis process. And so that's like a big thing that, you know, Caffey tries to like push on is like, well, why was there a change? And like, you know, what else could cause lactic acidosis to speed up?

Nic

Right.

Steve

Um, and actually I think this is one of— this is one of 2 like witnesses that Caffey has that he does a really kind of good job with. I think the very end with Jessup is a little fantasy land that actually gets where he wants to go. But this one's a really good one where he's like, well, aren't there, you know, like there's— if you have a coronary condition, what would be some symptoms? And he goes like, would it be like shortness of breath? Would it be like, you know, fatigue? Would it be this? He goes, yes, of course, yes, of course, whatever. And he's got the like report that this doctor did on Santiago that points out complaints of these, you know, things. And he sticks by his guns and is like, no, he got a clean bill of health. Like, so there's no— there's no way he had this coronary thing you think he does. Yeah. And I don't think that they initially nail it, right? You know, but then Jo kind of screws it up even further.

Jeanie

Absolutely.

Nic

Yeah, where she goes to, uh, she goes to object.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

Right? And, uh, and the objection is not— is, is overruled. Uh, and then she said— says it again.

Steve

No, no, the defense strenuously objects. It's like, I'm not a lawyer. I took the LSATs. I didn't go to law school. That's, that's the extent of my legal career, is like a fucking test on logic. I don't know shit. I fucking know you can't, like, just—.

Nic

It doesn't add qualifiers to it.

Steve

You don't object more. It's not like a thing where it's like, well, no, no, no, Your Honor, you didn't hear me. I really fucking don't want this to happen. Yeah, I know, I fucking heard you.

Nic

Uh, my clients plead hella not guilty to the charges.

Steve

Oh, in that case, case dismissed.

Nic

Um, yeah, and but the doctor is doing the thing where He realizes his professional opinion is being called into question. He either fucked up or lied.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And is just like saying, no, fuck it. No, it is impossible. Yeah. The only way he could have died is poison.

Steve

Yeah, exactly.

Nic

So, uh, yeah, that sucked. And there's definitely a hit that we're taking as the defense team.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Um, let's see. And Sam is— Sam is pissed, right? So again, there's more of the stuff where Sam is still like— he's not sold on protecting these guys or trying to defend him. He's like, they beat up on a weakling. Like, none of this is changing how I feel about this.

Steve

Yeah. Sam Sam clearly, like, very much, uh, uh, you know, kind of thinks of himself in many of the same ways as Santiago. Like, he really, you know, relates to him, understands where, like, a kid like that in something like the Marine Corps in a place like Guantanamo— like, the number of kind of things that went poorly for him where his military career could have been very different, right, in a different branch or a different post, whatever. But, but since he was where he was, he ended up with this group of fucking assholes and was killed, right? I mean, that's just Sam's kind of take on it. And so, you know, there's a little argument there, right?

Nic

So they say, why do you hate them so much? And Sam explains that. And then he Why do you like them so much? And, uh, and Joe says, because they stand on the wall and they say nothing's gonna hurt you today.

Steve

Worst fucking line in the entire movie.

Nic

I hate it.

Steve

Worst line in the movie.

Jeanie

It's so cheesy.

Nic

They stand on the wall and say, I got a new Dodge Challenger and kids by 3 different women. Like, look, uh, yeah, it is very melodramatic.

Steve

The thing I like least about the line is how it mimics Jessup's line at the end. And I think it's in here because it mimics it. Like, I think that's a deliberate choice By Sorkin, I just think he's wrong and stupid and shouldn't have done that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll move on from there. But yeah, worst line in the fucking entire movie. So then Joe comes over to Caffey's, knocks on the door, and is basically like, "Hey," because they decide they're not going to meet tonight. Like, right, take a night off.

Nic

Taking a night off.

Steve

We'll meet in the morning because that was the that was at the end of this. I think was oh no no there's there's there's more there. But oh no no that was the the prosecution closed like that that was them after the doctor. And then they were gonna call everybody in the patrol, but they stipulated to what was gonna be said. So the government has closed its side of the case, and it's now on to the defense calling their witnesses, which is why there's a delay. They're like, we're not gonna come back till Monday, or whatever, right? And so they've got the weekend to kind of prepare, but they're gonna take the night off. So Joe shows up at Kathy's house and basically invites him out to a seafood restaurant. The scene is fine. The scene to me doesn't matter because we don't actually have a romance between these two, and it feels like this is a scene that belongs in a movie that has a romance between these two. And it's a relationship beat that doesn't make a ton of sense to me. But, you know, some information kind of like comes out in this, but nothing that like was super crucial. I feel like it was just a lot of them getting to know each other a little bit.

Nic

Yeah, it does seem like the movie could have taken a different turn and this scene would have made more sense.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Or if they arrived at the seafood restaurant and the last 2 lobsters were taken by Colonel Jessup and another guy that were right in front of them in line.

Steve

My table!

Nic

Um, yeah, so Joe is optimistic about this, right? And Danny is very negative about this.

Steve

Yep.

Nic

Um, we've got, uh, now on the stand we've got, uh, Barnes, who's Noah Wyle's character. We saw him earlier driving the Humvee, and, uh, he is being asked about the code reds, right, on the stand.

Steve

And he kind of explains the situation where he got a code red because he like dropped his rifle because his hands were sweaty because he didn't use the resin that they're instructed to used to keep their hands from getting slippery. And it was something like his squadmates, like, like put a towel over his entire body or sheet over his body, whatever, held him down and just took turns punching him for like an hour.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Steve

Or something like—.

Jeanie

Brutal.

Steve

Very brutal.

Nic

And he's like, hey, I haven't dropped my gun ever since.

Steve

It works, sir. That's right.

Nic

I just wonder, like, how often, just knowing the different personality types that, that would be there, how often is that training you to be better and to not drop your gun? And how often is that training you to use your gun on the guys who punched you?

Steve

The next time you get a gun, I think what it's actually training you to do is to find somebody else who fucks up so that you can get them.

Nic

True.

Steve

Like part of it is really is like, oh, this is what happens. Let me figure out who I'm gonna do that to at some point. You know, which is yeah pretty bad. This is one of my favorite like lawyerly pieces here. So basically in cross examination, Jack Ross comes up with the United States Marine Corps operating manual or whatever it's called, like a code of ethics, whatever it is, and he's He's like, you know, Private, or Corporal, could you show me in here?

Nic

It's just a QR code now.

Jeanie

Right, exactly.

Steve

But he brings it up to him, he goes, you know, Corporal, could you show me in here where Code Red is defined and like how you know whatever? And he goes, oh no, so you're not gonna find this in the book. It's kind of a thing we just do down at Gitmo. It's like, you know, already. Oh, well great, I've got that. So he grabs the Guantanamo Bay, like, you know, manual. He goes, find me in here where it says. And he goes, nah, like, you don't really do— it's not in there. Like, it's not how it works. He goes, oh, so you're telling me that like all the information, you know, in all your time, like there's— you've never been told about this? Like, it's not in the book? Book. How strange. And when he goes to sit down, he goes, no more questions. Kathy gets up to do the redirect, and he grabs the book and he goes, show me where the mess— it says the mess hall is in here. I thought that was fucking brilliant. That is one of my favorite Sorkin little writing moments in here, where— because it's so obvious and it's clearly something the character would have had to think of in the moment. Yeah, he would not have been able to plan for that.

Jeanie

Yeah, yeah, it's a good move. And you see Kevin Bacon's character, he's like, oh man, got me.

Nic

Yeah, got him. Noah Wyle's like, earnest, like, befuddlement at being asked that question is so good. Like, he plays, like, just such a goofy, like, kind of— not even dumb, but he's just so honest about everything that he comes off like, what? Like, I don't see what you're doing here.

Jeanie

And I love where he's like, you're saying that they don't feed you?

Nic

And he's like, no, 3 squares a day.

Steve

It's interesting, though, to me, of the actors who, you know, the kind of famous actors we know who were witnesses, right? So you've got Christopher Guest, you've got Cuba Gooding Jr., you've got Noah Wyle, I feel like Wiley is like the best actor. Like, he took the acting the most serious.

Nic

Oh, he's awesome.

Steve

He's so good in this. And it's— yeah, he— I feel like he really developed a character. And I feel like Christopher Guest is like, well, I'm just gonna be a stodgy doctor guy. Like, you know, which is fine. Guest is a good actor, don't get me wrong. But it's like, it didn't— it felt like Wiley really was like, this is— I'm gonna fucking make a career out of this shit.

Nic

Christopher Guest was almost like when Mike Myers appeared in Inglourious Basterds as like a general or whatever, where it's Like the draw is that this funny guy isn't doing a funny. He's being like a regular—.

Steve

Maybe. But Christopher Guest was never Mike Myers level popularity ever. So, but yeah, I guess that kind of thing for sure.

Nic

Let's see here. So, oh, one kind of recurring thing is that Caffey will go up to this newsstand. He's got this buddy at a newsstand and they're just like exchanging idioms with each other every time they go up there. It was like, a penny saved, a dollar earned. An apple a day keeps the doctor away. And just firing that stuff back and forth.

Steve

Very funny.

Nic

He goes to he goes to his newsstand. This is like the night after the trial, and he gets in his car, and boom!

Jeanie

Markinson is in the back of his car, hiding in the back like a creep.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. Like a poltergeist. But yeah, he basically says, you know, like Jessup never ordered Joseph. Jessup never ordered the transfer. That's like the piece of information Markinson gives him. He goes, "What are you talking about? I saw it. You signed it. Your signature was on." He's like, "Yeah, I signed it the morning you arrived in Cuba. Like it never happened." And he's like, okay, I'm gonna put you in a hotel. You're gonna testify, like, whatever, all this stuff. So there's that. And then Caffey now has something to go tell Jack Ross about and be all braggy and shit.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So he finds Kevin Bacon, Jack Ross, at a bar, sits down, smug as fuck, eating his popcorn, ordering a beer. I'll have what he's having, like the whole deal. And they go back and forth. And basically, the key is he says, I've got Markinson. I'm gonna get him. He's gonna be witness, and I'm gonna subpoena Jessup. And Ross is like, "Look, I need to tell you, like if you falsely accuse a Marine officer of like a capital crime without sufficient evidence, like you will go to jail. Like this isn't just getting disbarred. This is like you'll go to jail for that." Yeah.

Nic

It's like, I know. It's kind of crazy the stakes of that, right?

Steve

Absolutely.

Nic

So let's see here. We've got oh. So they get in like they get in a big blowup, right?

Steve

Right.

Nic

And the last thing that Because Ross says something to him about, you know, you're chasing the ghost of your dead father, which is just really harsh.

Steve

Pretty harsh.

Nic

And then Caffey's response is, well, you're a lousy fucking softball player.

Steve

Lousy softball player, Jack. Yeah. So the next— oh, the other thing Markinson told him, so is the, the thing. And then he also said that the 0600 was not the next flight off. There was a flight at like, you know, 3 AM or something. Well, it was just— it was like, no, it was like right at when he was killed, basically. It was like, it was at like, uh, you know, 11:48 or some shit. I mean, it was like, you know, super, super— it was right near— he could have been on that flight.

Jeanie

He could have been on it.

Steve

There's one other. So we cut back, new day of the trial. They've now called Lieutenant Jonathan Kendrick, Kiefer Sutherland, to the stand. And he, you know, makes sure it's clear that the only 2 books he's ever read are the United States Marine Corps Code of Ethics and the King James Bible. Fucking moron. Anyway, and so—.

Nic

He's read a whole ton of Jack Reacher books by now.

Steve

I was thinking Mein Kampf would have been high on his list, but you know.

Nic

Um, uh, so they're questioning Kendrick, who is the direct kind of superior to Dawson and Downey, and he's saying, you know, Hal Dawson, like, here's his record, his service record, exemplary scores, you know, up until this point when he started getting bad grades, right? And they're asking, like, you know, why, why did you do that?

Steve

Yeah, basically the story Caffey's trying to tell and what probably really happened, but what he doesn't really get Kendrick to fully admit to, obviously, is That like Dawson was great. Dawson was an exemplary Marine. Da da da da da until he like went against a code red that was ordered on somebody else who was told to just they were not going to get any food. They only got water and vitamin supplements for a week. Yeah, and he snuck him food. And and the idea is that that Kendrick then punished Dawson for doing that by giving him this below average review, and it like screwed up his he would have gotten promoted to full corporal instead of lance corporal. Like that kind. Of thing. Um, because Caffey's making the point that like, oh, so in other words, when you order a code red and then it doesn't— isn't followed, there's like— there's punishment, clear punishment. Like, he knows what he's, you know, whatever. Uh, and he doesn't really get Kendrick to admit to any of that.

Nic

Yeah, he's—.

Steve

He stays, you know, with his story or whatever. But it puts it in the mind of not just, you know, the jury, but also of us, that like, hey, yeah, I guess you wouldn't really go against this guy if you wanted to have a fucking career.

Jeanie

He's scary.

Nic

Yeah, for sure, dude. He is really the most terrifying Um, and Dawson, uh, they make him the biggest possible hero. It's like, oh, all of my biggest weakness is sometimes I sneak food to guys that were intentionally starving to death.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. Although they do give him the fault of like, he's the one that fired across the fence line when he claimed that his mirror— they call it the guy who's like the opposite, whatever, right? He says he did something, but nobody else saw anything, nobody else, whatever. And so there is an element of like, did Dawson just get a Nietzsche trigger finger? Is, you know, he's not perfect in that sense.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Plus he killed a guy.

Nic

There's that.

Steve

Let's not dispute that.

Nic

He killed a guy.

Steve

Yeah, he doesn't dispute it at all. Anyway, so Markinson has told them that there was another flight, but they get the flight log out of Guantanamo Bay, and of course it doesn't show such a flight. It shows only the 0600 that they told, you know, they claimed that the transfer order was put on. And he's like, we'll find it from Andrews. It should have landed at Andrews. Go find that flight log. And so Sam goes off to do that.

Nic

Yep. Sam's doing the research there, and in the meantime, Markinson is supposed to testify, you know, the next day.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And Markinson, knowing that he's got to testify, he doesn't want to— doesn't want to do it.

Jeanie

Does not—.

Nic

Does not want to do it. And he ends up— we get this scene, and this stuck with me for sure when I first saw this movie, is it's a voiceover of the letter that Markinson is writing to Santiago's parents.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

Where he's not telling them what actually fucking happened.

Steve

Nope, he's still being super cagey. Yep.

Jeanie

And he— yeah, he's saying, I've, I've done the best I can do for— to help, or whatever. No, you haven't. No, you haven't. You, you could, you could go on the stand. Yeah. And make it right.

Nic

Or at least, if only I had a pen and paper with me right now to write some shit.

Jeanie

Oh my God.

Nic

Fucking crazy.

Steve

But that's a good point.

Nic

The visual of this, this whole scene of him getting into his full uniform and then putting the gun in his mouth is just really, really powerful.

Steve

Absolutely.

Nic

And, uh, Uh, one of the, one of the things that sticks with you from this movie. So the star witness, kind of the only guy who could credibly tell them what actually happened, is fucking gone.

Jeanie

Yeah. Yep.

Steve

And so, so basically, uh, and then Downey is on the stand. I think it's kind of happening intercut with the Markinson thing, right? Is Downey is on the stand, um, and initially, you know, Joe is very much like, you know, or maybe it's right after, but it's like Joe is telling Kathy like, look, you need to ask the questions in the right order. And all I'm thinking to myself myself while I'm watching this is like, that's— you know they get to cross-examine him, right? You know you don't get to tell the prosecutor what to do, right? Your guy, your boy's gonna fuck up. The way he fucks up though is so much worse because he never told Joe or any of the lawyers that he was not in the room when Kendrick told Dawson to do the code red on Santiago. He only heard it from Dawson.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And Jack Ross figures it out because he was like, you know, at a post until a certain time, and then a Jeep broke down, so they had to Like hike back, and it was a long way. And he admits that he got there, you know, whatever twenty-five minutes after when he claims originally that he was in the room, you know, for that. So so this is all fucking crazy. And they're back at Kathy's apartment. Joe and Sam waiting for Kathy to show up in there, and they're all they're freaking out about is how Downey fucked up the timeline. Yeah. And now it's clear that Dawson gave the order to Downey, right?

Nic

So right.

Steve

That's not good for them.

Nic

Oh man! Downey on the stands kind of kind of panicking when he's being asked the question, and he's just like, "How?" Oh dude, you feel so much for the guy. I mean, you do feel so much for this guy who's just like a simple dude who's very young and doesn't have a lot of experience in the world. And like, this is everything for him. It's fucking crazy.

Steve

Simple like Simple Jack from Tropic Thunder.

Nic

Oh yeah, yeah, simple, simple.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, this guy is not bright.

Nic

Good, uh, good pumpkin pie haircut.

Steve

Absolutely.

Nic

Um, yeah, so I was given an order and I followed it. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so now we've got Caffey. Uh, Tom Cruise We love a Tom Cruise drunk scene.

Steve

Sure.

Nic

Tom Cruise drunk in a movie. Very necessary, right?

Jeanie

Cocktail.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

Risky business all over the place. Um, and, and he's hammered in the rain. He's just wonderfully funny as a, as a really drunk guy and is explaining to them, you know, hey, well, uh, Markinson's dead.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So whatever. And, you know, he got in his full dress uniform, put a pistol in his mouth. He's done. So we seem to be out of witnesses, right? Uh, Jessup is like the Hail Mary that they have. That's all they have left. I mean, in their minds.

Steve

Like, that was the next thing they were gonna do, but now it's like, without Markinson, like, how can we do that? And this is when Jo kind of, kind of, uh, picks, or, you know, points out to him, like, why did you ask Jessup for the transfer order? You weren't just— you didn't just want it. You wanted to see him when he reacted because you knew there was something wrong. So it's like, let's just fucking get him. And he's like, are you fucking kidding? Um, but he, like, blows up at her, screams all kinds of fucking nasty shit. And she quite rightfully leaves.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Uh, leaving Sam and Kathy alone for a little while.

Nic

To share, uh, this bottle of Jack Daniel's that Kathy's been drinking directly from all day. So it's like 90% backwash, and Sam takes a swig of it. What a good friend here.

Steve

When Kathy goes, you want a drink? And Sam goes, sure, why not? I'm like, I got about 5 reasons why not, pal. You want 'em, I'll give 'em to you, but don't fucking drink that today.

Nic

Um, and they're kind of reminiscing about, about, uh, about, uh, Kathy's dad. Yeah, right. And Sam is, is saying like, you know, your dad's the best lawyer that, that I ever knew, but if I needed one lawyer to be on this case, it would be— it's like, I mean, nice thing to say, but—.

Steve

But bullshit. Complete bullshit. Like, you know, it's like, hey, you know, Ken Griffey— I mean, it's reversed, but hey, Ken Griffey Sr., your son might have been the greatest ballplayer of all time, but I'd rather have you up in the bottom of the 9th. No, I wouldn't. Give me Junior every time.

Nic

Like, come on. Come on. Oh man. So, so it finally ends with, I'm gonna put Jess up on the stand.

Steve

Yeah, yeah.

Nic

You get like a very declarative moment there.

Steve

But then he decides, as we see that this is not a fifth of Jack, this is like a 375 milliliter bottle, right? This is like a smaller bottle, but he has drunk—.

Jeanie

It's mostly gone.

Steve

80% of his minimum, 90% of it, right? So he is fucking blotto.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Steve

And drives after Joe, right? He's in his car driving through the rain. Joe, Joe, I'm gonna put Jess up on the stand!

Nic

Hey Joe!

Steve

It's like, get the fuck out of the car, you drunk asshole.

Jeanie

And then the next day he's just like, oh, I'm fine.

Steve

Fresh as a fucking daisy. That's incredible.

Nic

How many people do you think he shouted, hey Joe, I'm gonna put Jess up on the stand, before he got to her?

Steve

Sorry, wrong Joe.

Nic

Sorry, ma'am, I didn't see the stroller. I apologize.

Steve

Are people really walking their baby in the rain?

Jeanie

Come on. And they— there's like a case of beer in that carriage instead of a baby.

Steve

This is my pram with my booze.

Nic

Okay, anyway, and, uh, and Caffey has, uh, you know, they're kind of brainstorming here to figure out how to do it. He does a funny impression of Nicholson.

Steve

No, he doesn't. For, for that's fucking terrible.

Nic

Like, if we're saying that anything from So I Married an Axe Murderer was funny, then this was way fucking better. Um, oh man, and, uh, that really hurt. He has this, like, he has this baseball bat that he carries around that's like his thinking bat, right?

Steve

It's thinking bat. Yeah, you know what I'm thinking about? That's not bad.

Nic

I need to think. I wish, dude, we should do all thinking bats. We should just have—.

Steve

I've got a thinking bat at home. Okay, it's a It's not a wood bat because I'm you know I've never played.

Jeanie

I have one by the bed, but I don't think with it. It's usually just yeah in case somebody tries to come get me in the night.

Steve

How often how often does that come into into use for that purpose?

Jeanie

Not yet. Not yet.

Steve

Thank God.

Nic

Sure God.

Jeanie

Glad. But maybe I'll start thinking with it. There you go.

Steve

But he goes into his closet, right? That's the key here.

Jeanie

Yeah. Yeah. And he discovers he's like wait a second.

Steve

Yeah.

Jeanie

Why? Yeah. Why was his closet Closet looking like that. Why was nothing packed?

Steve

Very good point. He is a smart guy. Maybe you do want him instead of his dad. I don't know.

Nic

Uh, so they call, uh, the defense calls Jessup to the stand. Yes, right. And, uh, the— this is just so great, the buildup of it, the way that, that he sets this whole thing up. And again, I mean, he probably didn't have the entire thing planned out from the beginning, but definitely he had the foundation figured out. Like, the beginning of what he starts talking about, he just lays it out so So he's asking Jessup, you know, you said that Santiago was being transferred because he was in danger.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Yeah, he was in danger. Grave danger? Is there any other kind? Right? And this, like, snappy back and forth between the two. And there's— he fucking hates him so much. Jessup cannot stand this guy. And, uh, and he finally gets to, well, why wasn't he packed?

Jeanie

Yeah.

Nic

You know, he didn't call home. Jessup, you came here for 2 days, you made 5 phone calls, you brought all this shit.

Steve

And you knew you were gonna be back in 2 days.

Nic

Santiago was gonna leave forever, and he didn't even tell one person that he was leaving.

Steve

He wrote 14 letters in 9 months, but didn't make a single phone call home to ask somebody, asking a friend to pick him up at the airport, telling his parents he's coming, nothing at all. And he's like, like, oh, I didn't know the man that well. It's like, you know, he doesn't really have—.

Nic

Maybe he was an early riser and wanted to pack in the morning. Like, oh, the hate is so great here. Yeah.

Steve

So we should mention real quick though, Danny sent Sam to Andrew's AFB. He didn't say why at the time, but basically like they're waiting. Joe and Danny are waiting for Sam to show up. Where's Sam? Where's Sam? He'll be here. He'll be here. The whole thing. And he does. Just before he starts questioning Jessup, Sam shows up with 2 men who are Air Force guys. And we know that because their fancy suits are blue, not tan or black or white or anything else. They're blue. So they're Air Force. So a couple of guys just sitting in the gallery there. But it's important for Danny that he knows they're there, right? Yeah, yeah.

Nic

Um, and yeah, so, uh, Jessup, I can't speak on the travel habits of this.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nic

Uh, any real— and very arrogantly again, like, this whole time, I don't have time for this, like, I'm very important, why are you wasting my time? And kind of looking around like, okay, see, I'm doing the thing, I'm answering the questions, can I go now?

Jeanie

If—.

Nic

Unless you have any real questions, I'm, I'm gonna get out of here. So he excuses himself.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

Right. And then we get Caffey's very pissed about that.

Steve

Well, and I love it too, Dan. Caffey, he goes back to the defense table and picks up like a glass of water to like drink. He's got his back turned to Jessup, and he is shaking so violently, sipping that water like, you know, because he's about to—.

Jeanie

He's like, this is so scary. He's so good.

Steve

He's got— at some point in this process, he has to commit to, am I going to accuse this man of doing this or not? Yeah. Because if I'm not, I gotta let him leave and this is over. If I'm gonna do it, I gotta do it now, and I better fucking get him.

Jeanie

Yeah.

Steve

Or not. And it's like, you know, this is a thing that I vacillate back and forth a little bit on this whole segment where— or this whole sequence where, um, it feels a little convenient that Jessup, who is in line to be the director of the National Security Council or something, right, like a very high-level position, is so easily rattled.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

But to the credit of the script and the movie and Nicholson's portrayal, we are shown over and over and over again that he has nothing but contempt for the people around him, of being questioned, of having any of his motives or methods at all brought into any kind of scrutiny, he does not have any fucking stomach for that.

Jeanie

Nobody should be questioning anything he's done or is doing.

Nic

Well, and Caffey like started the process of getting under his skin way back when he asked for the, uh, the transfer order. So like, he, he might not be rattled in a normal situation, but Caffey has been like slowly wearing him down and, uh, yeah, setting him up for that.

Jeanie

And he's just pissed that this is even happening.

Steve

Yeah, 100%.

Jeanie

He's like, this is— I, you know, well, as we'll see.

Steve

Yeah, but, and maybe this is, maybe this is where Sam is right. It is better to have Danny Caffey and not Lionel Caffey being because Lionel Caffey, Jessup would've had more respect for.

Nic

Yeah, probably.

Steve

And there wouldn't probably have been as much of a triggering kind of thing, you know? Whereas with Danny Caffey, the young Harvard punk, right, who's never served for real kind of thing, questioning me, oh, fuck him. And I think that it does kind of make it more realistic that he gets pushed to this level. But this is basically the famous exchange, right?

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Starting from, you know, did you order the code red? And like, or I mean, there's— I don't even know where it starts, but it's like he really goes on and on. They go back and forth a ton. And, you know, before like Jessup gives him the whole like, you know, you can't handle the truth, right? I mean, that's the whole deal. Um, you know, we're not— I'm not gonna like relay the whole thing.

Nic

Are your orders always followed? Like, you ordered this guy not to be touched, so clearly, like, you know, he was touched. So what, what is it? Either your orders are always followed or you didn't order this guy not to be touched.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

Yeah, and then his speech about, you know, the freedom that I provide and all this stuff.

Steve

Blanket.

Nic

He really does feel like he is personally in charge of the reason that like we're able to go to Taco Bell or whatever.

Steve

Yeah, I mean, it's like he would have— so they talked about him, you know, being in Vietnam, right? Because him and Markinson, right? They did, they toured together in 'Nam. And so I'm thinking back, I don't know how old the character would have been for the Cuban Missile Crisis, probably a child, I guess, when Kennedy dealt with that thing. But it's like, you know, Cuba has wrecked— has represented for many Americans for decades and decades, like the closest enemy, right? Like especially during the Cold War, it was like, well, that was the closest the communists got to us. So there is an element of like, you know, what happens in Cuba or to Cuba really affects all of the United States. And it's never been true. That's never actually been reality. But that's been the like supposition and the position of Americans a lot.

Nic

There has to be a fear to justify all the spending and all the, you know, the prioritization of that kind of shit over like, you know, what we need. Um, so, so yeah, we finally get the, did you order the code red? And, you know, are you gonna answer this question? And we get a, you're goddamn right I did. Very satisfying to hear that.

Steve

There are 2 acting— face acting moments in this scene that I really love. One is Nicholson's and one is Bacon's. When Nicholson is first questioned about, uh, the why the conflicting orders, he does this great thing where he kind of purses his lips, looks side to side. Yeah, there's a contempt, but there's also a, oh, fuck, I fucked up. What did I fuck up? How do I do this? And there's this— you can see him thinking, which I feel like not— there are a lot of actors, you never get that. But Nicholson gives you, holy shit, I can see his little wheels turning.

Jeanie

It's so excellent.

Steve

It's really wonderful. And the other one is Bacon's. When Jessup finally screams, you're goddamn right I did, the way Kevin Bacon— the way his eyes drop, and he just realizes, I gotta fucking arrest this guy. He just admitted to a fucking crime and being responsible for killing this kid. Right.

Nic

And even more, even more than him losing the case, or it was the idea of like, the next thing that I have to do, because he was already telling, uh, Caffey, if you accuse some, you know, of a crime, you're fucking done. So even though I'm in the right to do this, just to slap the cuffs on this guy is gonna— I'm, I'm scared to have to do that. Yeah, you know, like, absolutely. Someone who's untouchable has to be touched, and it's my job. Yep. Um, so yeah, it ends with this big kind of chaos in the court, and, uh, Jessup is arrested and having an incredible meltdown because he feels like after he— after this, he's like, all right, can I fucking go now? Yeah, I ordered that anyway. Back to Cuba.

Steve

Going back to my base. Yeah, like, I got shit to do. And this is when he's placing MPs— restrain the colonel.

Nic

Uh, so yeah, and, and he's flipping out and he's like, you know, all you did was weaken a nation with this.

Jeanie

And when he lunges at him. Yes, I love it.

Steve

You fucked with the wrong Marine.

Jeanie

So cheesy, but I love it.

Nic

And, uh, and Caffey gives the, uh, I'm an officer in the US Navy and you're under arrest, you son of a bitch.

Steve

Yeah, the writing kind of doesn't—.

Jeanie

It's a little cheesy.

Steve

The dialogue cheeses out a little.

Jeanie

You know what though, that, that last scene, it was so intense. Like, it's so— it really draws you in. I think that's why I like this movie so much, because they It's just so intense.

Nic

Even seeing it so many times.

Jeanie

Yeah, and they're so good. Yeah. And one of my favorite parts is also when Jack Nicholson goes to get up and then he has to sit back down. And the judge is like, he says something like, what kind of, what are you running here or whatever to the judge? And he's like, something like, I'm certain our way—.

Steve

Basically like Jessup says, like, you know, you'll address to Caffey, you'll address me as Colonel or Sir. I'm pretty sure I've earned it. And he's like, what kind of clown show you running? Or something like that. What kind of monkey show you running here? And he goes, well, you'll refer to me as Your Honor or Judge. I'm certain that I've earned it.

Jeanie

I'm certain I've earned it. Yeah. I love that part, 'cause it's just like putting him in his place a little bit.

Steve

Absolutely.

Nic

I do feel like I'm on Jessup's side in that case. I think his position is more earned than the title judge, which is sometimes your appointed thing.

Jeanie

Well, he's in the judge's house, though.

Nic

Sure.

Steve

Come on. And the judge himself is a colonel as well. So it's not like he's some low-ranking official.

Nic

I generally hate judges being like, oh, I'll hold you in contempt. You didn't respect my powdered wig enough. Like, go fuck yourself. Respect my authority! Yeah, you're just a lawyer with a friend who's a mayor.

Steve

With a robe.

Nic

So, uh, so Jessup is arrested, and now we're wrapping things up and we get the verdict. Yeah. And, um, basically there were 3 things that they were on trial for, uh, murder, Yep. Conspiracy to commit murder, and then conduct unbecoming a Marine. So murder, conspiracy to commit murder, not guilty, right? Conduct unbecoming a Marine, guilty. But the, the sentence for that is time served, plus they're both going to be dishonorably discharged. So, uh, yeah, wow, I fucking killed a guy, now I got fired from my job. Like, I don't give a fuck.

Steve

No, you killed a guy. It's absolutely appropriate. Well, you killed the wrong kind of guy is the problem. No, it— because really, as I think about it, their job is definitely not killing people in their sleep, which is essentially what— well, yeah, they're not supposed to do that. There are rules of engagement. They're not supposed to do that.

Nic

I'm not saying it doesn't affect the scoreboard, but yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it's incredibly distressing.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

To these 2 guys because they're kind of like Wait, like, uh, and especially Downey.

Steve

Downey does not get it. Yeah.

Jeanie

How?

Steve

How?

Nic

No, we did everything right. We did what we're supposed to do. We followed orders. What's happening here? And, uh, and Hal like gives kind of the final speech of the movie. Very cheesy again.

Jeanie

Super cheesy.

Nic

So play-like.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

Right?

Steve

Yes. This is all— this must—.

Nic

This play-like part.

Steve

This scene for sure came straight out of the play in a way that like I feel like the Joe and Kathy at the seafood restaurant maybe isn't in it at all. Or if it is, it's very different. This felt like everything from Jessup arriving at the courthouse to the end. I'm— I would look back on it, but I haven't. But I still feel guaranteed, like, that is verbatim just the third act of the play.

Nic

It has to be. And, you know, Hal's final line is, uh, like, we're in trouble because we were supposed to fight for people who can't fight for themselves. We're supposed to fight for people like Willie.

Steve

That motherfucker's still a Marine.

Nic

And then at the end they say, and scene. Like, this movie should have ended with the entire cast holding hands and bowing in that courtroom.

Jeanie

That's called a curtain call.

Steve

And yes, that was a curtain call. That would have been very apropos. I agree. We should have had a curtain call.

Jeanie

Oh.

Steve

Yeah, that is A Few Good Men.

Nic

That is A Few Good Men.

Steve

All right.

Nic

Oh, man. Well, this was my pick. Actually, why don't we let our guest give her final thoughts, and then I'll go in. Jeanie, A Few Good Men, you can rate it on a 0 to 5. All right, let's hear it. And yeah, give us some final thoughts on this movie. Why did you pressure me to bring it this week?

Steve

I'll just throw it out real quick, though. I can't add your score in because it screws up all the shit I do on the website. I was going to say, I can't add it, don't. So officially, the score will be ours, but you don't have to give a score. If you want to, please feel free, but you don't have to.

Jeanie

Okay, well, this— I just, again, I've just loved this movie. I've seen it like at least 10 times all the way through, if not more. Um, I love a young Tom Cruise. I think he's excellent in this. I, I just— I— it's just a fun watch. Um, yeah, I'll, I'll watch it again.

Nic

Yes, we will.

Jeanie

Um, yeah, I don't, I don't know what else to say about the movie other than Yeah, it's, it's excellent. And I think if I were, if my score were to count, uh, I think I'd give it a 3.5.

Steve

Oh, okay.

Nic

3.5.

Jeanie

Or 3.5.

Steve

I was gonna say that. Well, I'll just tell you, like, in our, in our scale, that's fairly on the low side. Nic and I are among the most generous point givers, I think, in podcast history.

Nic

I know, we really do.

Jeanie

Really.

Steve

And I'm gonna explain one of the points.

Jeanie

I was thinking it might be a 4, but then it is Really cheesy. Yeah. And some of— I like the music, I like the score, but a couple of the parts are a little like when he's chasing Joe and he finally reveals, I'm gonna put him on the stand, and it's like, oh, like, I don't know.

Steve

Yeah.

Jeanie

So there's a few things like that that I, you know. So I'm gonna stand— I'm gonna stick with it.

Steve

Okay, that works.

Jeanie

All right, thank you for having me. And of course, thank you for watching that movie.

Nic

Yeah, thanks for joining us.

Jeanie

This was fun.

Nic

Fun. Um, yeah, so I think this was, this was super fun. I love talking about this. Uh, loaded cast.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

Just perfect. Like, the script is just so wonderful. And, uh, and with a play, I mean, you do have to have these lines that really hammer things home. Like, you're not counting on being able to show these visuals, so you have to be able to really, like, deliver the moral message at the end and all this stuff. And it does make it kind of cheesy, but I think overall this held up The back and forth during the trial scenes was really like the boxing match. You know, we're just like, the momentum is constantly shifting, and we don't know how it's gonna go.

Jeanie

Mm-hmm.

Nic

Um, one of the best Tom Cruise performances out there.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And, uh, Nicholson, just unbelievable the way that it seems like he's— he was on the screen for 80% of the movie when you go to think back about it, just 'cause he was so impactful. Um, super fun. I think it could have been, I don't know, 10, 15 minutes shorter. But overall, I love this. This is definitely one worth watching and rewatching. This is a 4 out of 5 for me.

Steve

Nice. Very cool. Funny enough, I actually like this movie, or I'm going to rate it at least higher than either one of you, which I find a little surprising. But yeah, no, I love, love, love this movie. Aaron Sorkin is one of my favorite screenwriters because I just, I am a sucker for like dialogue and character work. And it's great here. I do think this is, if not Tom Cruise's best performance, which might be Eyes Wide Shut, this is very close. Like, this is right in there. And I think with Nicholson, I think this is the most efficient talent that Nicholson has ever shown on screen. Like, this is like his best performance per minute of screen time, right? He's done other ones. You know, you got to do One Flew, and you got to do The Shining, you got to do, you know, Chinatown, whatever. He's done great, great, great stuff. But in all those movies, he's in like 80% of the movie. And here he's on screen for like 20 or 25 minutes, right? But he is so impactful. The whole sequence— the thing that I realized, like, there's a cheesiness to some of the ending. I mean, you guys are dead right about the final sort of Hal Dawson's final speech is not great. But, you know, the whole, uh, uh, uh, you, you want the truth, I think I'm entitled, you can't handle the truth, all this shit, right? It, it sounds cheesy now because it's become a cliché because of this, right?

Jeanie

But it's so intense and so good.

Steve

So impactful and intense. Yeah, when it happened. Um, so I, yeah, I love this movie. I think the cast is fantastic, the writing's fantastic, the directing's fantastic. Uh, I didn't really notice the score, which I'm actually like okay with when a composer just underlines a movie with his music, and I don't really notice it that much. That's actually kind of a good thing in some times, sometimes anyway. I'm a 4.5 out of 5. I think this is not quite, you know, where I'd be doing like a perfect 5 out of 5, but it is close. And I think this is just a really spectacular movie. And thank you, Jeanie and Nic, both of you, for making me watch this this week because it was a hell of a lot of fun.

Nic

Yeah, love it. All right, Steve, well, that's A Few Good Men, and you're, you're on deck next week.

Steve

What do we have coming up? I think we're going to go to another Another film that is just stocked, just chock-full of fantastic actors top to bottom. There are people in this movie that you know, like you're going to recognize everybody from from from the main characters down to Steve Dave and the comic book guys. No, you're not. You won't recognize them. The writing's fantastic. It's not Aaron Sorkin fantastic, but it is fantastic. We're going to see our second Kevin Smith film of the podcast because we're going to go and watch 1990. I think I'll get this wrong. I think it's five, either 1995 or 96. Mallrats. We're gonna go watch Mallrats.

Nic

Okay.

Steve

Mallrats is my sort of quintessential Kevin Smith film.

Nic

Ooh, okay.

Steve

I'm not saying it's the best. Yeah. It's not even necessarily my favorite, but it's the one that I'm like, if you'd never in your life heard of Kevin Smith or seen any one of his movies, this is the one I would show you first.

Nic

Okay.

Steve

It's Mallrats.

Nic

Yeah, yeah.

Steve

Ben Affleck, Jason Lee, obviously Jay Mewes and Kevin Smith themselves, Joey Lauren Adams. Uh, we see, uh, we've seen her before. Um, crap, I can't remember the actress's name. Uh, she was— she played Jade in The Rock. Um, oh yeah, there's a whole bunch of people in this that like— oh, Jeremy London, or maybe it's Jason London. I can never remember. It's one of the Londons, the one that wasn't in Dazed and Confused and Party of Five. It's the other London. Uh, I think maybe I'm getting them all mixed up. Anyway, Mallrats, that's what we're gonna see next week. Uh, have you seen Mallrats?

Nic

Dude, I do not think I've seen Mallrats.

Steve

Sweet.

Nic

I know, I mean, I'm excited about to check this one out and, and And to see how Kevin Smith did with like a budget, because we had watched Clerks, right, which had like a lot of the quintessential Kevin Smith elements to it but was so limited by its budget. It was his first film. So now that he's been given a little cash, I'd love to see what he's, uh, gonna do.

Steve

It certainly did not have the same multiplier effect, uh, as a box office thing that Clerks did. Um, and actually also Mallrats, although we won't be reviewing this one, it is in my opinion the Best DVD commentary track of any movie I've ever seen. It's absolutely hilarious. Okay, they spend the entire time making fun of Ben Affleck, who was present for the commentary, but he was also filming Armageddon at the same time he was filming Mallrats. And so it's there's a lot of very funny stuff that I will look back and make sure to reference when we watch it next week. But yeah, so that will be next week. Jeannie, thank you so much for joining us as our first ever guest. Absolutely awesome. You were wonderful. Wonderful. And you're welcome back.

Jeanie

Thank you for having me.

Steve

Welcome back anytime.

Jeanie

I was very nervous. Well, maybe, maybe next time won't be.

Steve

It didn't show.

Jeanie

You did great.

Steve

All right, everybody, that's a wrap. If you like what you hear, please consider heading over to Apple or Spotify and leaving us a 5-star review. It helps new folks find the show. Be sure to check out our website at twodadsonemovie.com. That's the number 2 and the number 1. There you can explore the movies we've covered, sign up for our newsletter, The Rewind, and even get sneak previews of upcoming episodes. Once again, this has been A Few Good Men. Another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week.

Nic

Thanks, everyone.