Transcript

Dr. Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)

They were slaughtering the spring lambs and they were screaming. And you ran away?

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

No. First I tried to free them. I opened the gate to their pen, but they wouldn't run.

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

They just stood there, confused. They wouldn't run.

Dr. Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)

But you could and you did, didn't you?

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

Yes. I took one lamb and I ran away as fast as I could.

Dr. Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)

Where were you going, Chloe?

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

I don't know. I didn't have any food, any water, and it was very cold. Very cold.

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

I thought. I thought if I could save just one, but he was so heavy. So heavy.

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

I didn't get more than a few miles when the sheriff's car picked me up.

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

Rancher was so angry, he sent me to live at the Lutheran orphanage in Postman. I never saw the ranch again.

Dr. Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)

What became of your lamb, Clarice?

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

I killed him.

Dr. Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)

You still wake up sometimes, don't you? You wake up in the dark and hear the screaming of the lambs.

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

Yes.

Dr. Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)

And you think if you save poor Catherine, you could make them stop, don't you? You think if Katherine lives, you won't wake up in the dark ever again to that awful screaming of the lambs.

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

I don't know. I don't know.

Dr. Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)

Thank you, Thank you

Steve

It's 2Dads 1 movie. Shocktoberfest. A celebration of the spookiest movies of the 80s and 90s. Now here are your hosts. Scary Steve Paulo and Nightmare.

Steve

Nic, Briana. Hello, everybody. It's another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

And today we are talking about the 1990. Oh, correct me if I'm wrong, 1 91, I think. Yeah, yeah. Thriller, crime drama. Oh, so many great things.

Steve

The Silent of the Lambs starring Jody Foster and Anthony Hopkins. And then also Scott Glenn, sort of, but really, really Jody Foster and Anthony Hopkins.

Nic

They're driving the bus here for sure.

Steve

Oh, man. A little Ted Divine, right?

Steve

Or whatever. Yeah. But no fantastic movie going to jump into it. It's. This is the fourth of our five Shocktober Fest episode.

Steve

So, you know, we're really enjoying the spooky season. I hope that, you know, listener, you're enjoying the month of October with us.

Nic

It's been going well. We've been getting some good feedback from people. Yeah, it's been great.

Steve

A lot of fun and. Yeah. And actually, speaking of feedback, we got an. An old friend Nic and I had back in high school. Jeff.

Steve

Jeff Harrow. How you doing out there, buddy? Hope you're listening. I'm going to read your email on the air. Well, the Air.

Steve

Whatever. It's a podcast.

Nic

This is the air.

Steve

This isn't like FCC broadcast. So here's the email, the subject matter, the subject line.

Steve

Paulo, Nic. Two requests, one email. He's so clever with the.

Nic

Very nice.

Steve

Yeah.

Steve

First time, long time. Here. The pod rules. Oh, he's so nice. And great to regularly hear both your voices, only slightly more grizzled than they were in the late 90s.

Steve

Request one tombstone. I think we could probably figure that out at some point. I feel like that's in the queue. It's in the queue. It's in the queue.

Steve

Request to two episodes behind, but assume you haven't had a 3Dads1 movie guest host. If you haven't, please have Krispy on it. That's Nic's brother. Join for something, anything. And I think that's a great idea.

Steve

I don't know.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Would be into that.

Nic

No, for sure. We're gonna start bringing some guests.

Nic

So we got. We got big plans for our future here. But I love that suggestion, Jeff.

Steve

Absolutely. And we'll have to see maybe what?

Steve

Maybe Chris could either, like, jump into a movie we already have scheduled or pick one that he would really love or something like that. That'll be a lot of fun. And then Jeff says, sneaking in a third request. Paulo. That's me.

Steve

You were adamant about us all watching Swingers as a modern master masterpiece at one of Jason Honduras's pool parties. Shout out, Jason, and turns out you weren't wrong, my man. I'll assume that one's in the works. And he's not wrong. It is in the works.

Steve

He's also not wrong. It was a modern Masterpiece in the mid-90s.

Nic

Holds up.

Steve

I have a feeling if he's talking about a Banduras pool party, that was actually probably a theater cast party, I would bet, at some point.

Nic

So we're talking like 98.

Steve

Yeah, like 96. 97. You know, that's when the movie came out. It would have been like, May 98, something like that. And all the.

Steve

All the theater kids getting together and watching that, which makes a lot of sense.

Nic

Very nice.

Steve

So, yeah, so Jeff says we should keep it up. He loves the production, the consistency, and I do think the consistency is a thing. We try really hard to make sure there is an episode every morning.

Steve

Wednesday, 5am Pacific. Every single week.

Nic

We get up so early every Wednesday to go live. We hope you all appreciate it. Yeah.

Steve

So thank you, Jeff, for writing in. And if you want to do what Jeff did and write an email to the 2Dads, you can do so at the show at 2Dads, one movie. Okay.

Nic

Yeah. Thanks, Jeff.

Nic

Dude, good to hear from you. I talk to Jeff a lot.

Steve

Yeah, that's great.

Nic

But it's great to have support from him. And, you know, we've gotten email from total strangers and people who we don't even know where they live.

Nic

And we love hearing from you, seriously. Like, Steve and I love to chat movies. We're very responsive. So if anyone has some suggestions, fire away. You know, we're learning as we go along with this, but we feel like we have something really fun going.

Steve

Absolutely. And we have some more theme months coming up. Like I said, this is the fourth of five Shocktoberfest episodes. We have a whole new thing planned for November. We'll get into that next week.

Steve

We have a whole different thing planned for December and for January. So it's like, you're going to want to stick around. There's going to be a lot of fun, and, you know, it's going to be kind of. I think it's gonna be really interesting to see these movies sort of back to. Back to back when they're.

Steve

When they're related by a particular theme. And we'll, of course, get into all that soon.

Nic

Absolutely.

Steve

All right. So, the Silence of the Lambs.

Steve

Nic, you picked the Silence of the Lambs for us for Shocktoberfest. Talk to me about your history with the Silence of the Lambs.

Nic

Yeah, so I think. I mean, probably pretty similar to most people as I knew of it at the time, but we were on the young side. So we weren't watching this when it came out.

Steve

No, definitely not.

Nic

And even later, until we got to college age, we're talking to each other about, oh, this movie's really good. You have to check it out. Because even in high school, it's like, Tommy Boy or Silence of the Winds. What are you gonna watch with your boys?

Nic

But you just grow to appreciate it more and more. I think the more you get into examining films and just the older you get and stuff to appreciate this kind of movie. So is one I kind of saw, you know, in my 20s. But recently, especially my wife Jeannie is a huge fan of this movie, and her and I, I think, have watched it together maybe four times.

Steve

Oh, my gosh.

Nic

And it's just. It's hard because you kind of get lost in how good it is that you forget how many trigger warnings you should probably include when you're recommending it to somebody.

Steve

Right. Yeah.

Nic

You know what I'm saying?

Nic

So if you're like, oh, you need a good movie to watch tonight, do Silence of the Lambs because forget this, because the movie is just so enthralling and compelling and like, the. The work is so great in it. So, yeah, I mean, this is one that I thought it's not a traditional horror movie, but this is how something that is truly like an artistic film and a blockbuster can also be, like, in the genre of Shocktoberfest.

Steve

Absolutely. I think if the particular combination of, like, critical and award success, which we'll get into, plus box office success, that alone is like a rare combo to have both of those, but then to also do it in what is, again, not.

Steve

Not a specifically genre horror film, but a very dark, twisted, you know, spooky, scary kind of thing. Like, it's pretty impressive that this. That this movie, you know, is what it is and became what it. What it is. Yeah, I.

Steve

For my part, I think I first saw Silence Lambs probably in college. I was briefly, at least a film student in college. And this is the kind of movie that, like, if you become a film student in college and you haven't seen it yet, you know, you're like an outsider. Like, you gotta catch up. You gotta make sure you watch Casablanca and the Godfather, and you gotta make sure you watch the Silence of the Lambs.

Steve

And so. But I don't think I've seen it in probably 15 years. Like, at least. Definitely one we haven't watched in a while. Although, funny enough, I gotta ask you, your wife, Jeannie, is she into, like, true crime podcasts and stuff like that?

Steve

Is that like, her bag or. No.

Nic

So, like, not really now, like, this current wave of that being a big thing. But what she used to tell me she would read all the time at her job was this website called, like, True Crime Diary.

Steve

Oh, interesting.

Nic

And this is like early 2000s, and she said she would read that all the time and it was, you know, different true crime stories. So, I mean, the genre, for sure, she's drawn towards that.

Steve

Yeah, I asked because my wife Heather, also a huge fan of this movie, very much into true crime. She watches the YouTubes and listens to the podcasts and Dateline is on constantly.

Nic

Oh, yeah.

Steve

So funny. Funny parallel there.

Nic

I think it enhances your viewing experience of this. Just kind of knowing the terminology or, like, hearing about ways that an investigation might go right. Generally, like, watching this, you kind of understand, okay, this is why they're doing this and everything.

Nic

So it's great to inform that. So, yeah, huge for True crime fans, especially.

Steve

Yeah, very.

Nic

Even though. God, I hope it's not true.

Steve

No, no, it is fictional. It is. It is based on a novel. So. But, yeah, so actually.

Steve

So let's go ahead and jump into the facts. Yeah. On the Silence of the Lambs. The Silence of the Lambs came out on February 14, Valentine's Day, 1991, with a well deserved R rating, a running time of 118 minutes. The film was directed by Jonathan Demme, written by Ted Talley, from the novel by Thomas Harris, starring Jody Foster, Anthony Hopkins and Scott Glenn.

Steve

I include Scott because he did get billing above the title, so I figured, you know, throw him in there. But really, this is Jody Foster and Anthony Hopkins for sure. The scores. Rotten tomatoes, 95% fresh on rotten Tomatoes. Basically nobody said a bad thing about the.

Steve

When it came out on IMDb, it has an 8.6, which is massive score for IMDb. It is actually the 22nd highest rated film on IMDb.

Nic

There's at least 100 movies, so that's pretty impressive.

Steve

Well, I was gonna say they tell you the top 250 or top 200 or something like that. So after that, I think you have to guess on your own.

Steve

After that, I think you're into the 7.2 territory where there's like 10,000 movies at that rate. But. And then we like to throw this one into Roger Ebert. A big thumbs up for the Silence of the Lambs when it came out. Gene Siskel, a thumbs down.

Steve

Now, I think that's crazy, to be honest with you. Just viewing the movie as a work of art, as a. As a film, you know, I think that's pretty crazy. But just to briefly sort of explain Siskel's thumbs down, he was quoted at the time in his review saying that he found the movie a quote, a depressingly brutal, trashy thriller with a predictable monster in the house finale. Now, I couldn't disagree more.

Steve

I do think it's brutal. I don't know if I would use depressingly as an adjective there, but it's brutal.

Nic

So.

Steve

Okay. Trashy.

Nic

I feel like trashy talk more about an exploitation type horror movie. I don't think this was it at all. I mean, it definitely has extremely disturbing themes, but it's not as graphic as like a quote trashy movie would be to kind of exploit these themes.

Steve

And it's also one thing to look back at this movie now in 2025 and look at the, like, just absolutely completely insensitive treatment of transgender people in the movie. Sort of like that stuff.

Steve

But we're look, I'm looking back at this movie from, from the vantage point of here. Gene Siskel was looking at it from 91. So I feel like unless he was incredibly enlightened, that probably wasn't exactly what he was going about. Apparently he had issues with the way that the female victims and these crimes against women in this movie were treated. Maybe not with as much sensitivity as he'd hoped, something like that.

Steve

But regardless, Gene Siskel was a thumbs down, gave it a 1.5 out of 4 on their, on their 4 point scale there. Okay, moving on. Awards. It won a total of 71 awards across different award shows and then was nominated for 50 additional awards that it did not win. But the five I'm going to mention, of course, are its five Oscars.

Steve

It won the big four, the best picture, Best director, best lead actor for Anthony Hopkins, best lead actress for Jodie Foster. And then, you know, I think if you could think about like the next big four, like after those would be like the supporting actors and the screenwriting awards. It did win best adapted screenplay as well. So massive award show hit. Sounds of the Lambs is, you know, one of probably one of the most brutal best picture winners ever.

Steve

Oh, yeah. And then its commercial success was on unimpeachable on a $19 million budget, which seems pretty kind of modest for what they're able to do, at least just the makeup effects. And some of this stuff was pretty crazy. Pulled in $272 million at the box office for 14 times its budget. That's, you know, again, by any meas enormous commercial success in addition to being enormous critical success.

Steve

So those are the facts on the Silence of the Lambs.

Nic

Wow.

Steve

You want to jump into it, Nic?

Nic

Yeah, I just want to pour out a quick sip for everyone who had a Valentine's Day date on opening night of Silence of the Lambs in 1991. If you're still in a relationship that started that way, give us a shoot us an email.

Nic

Theshowdads1movie.com we'd love to examine your life further.

Steve

Seriously. We will have a lot of follow up questions.

Nic

All right, so I guess I'll get into just where we're starting in the movie. And I do love this where it gives you the text on the screen to indicate the location. And it's so imprecise and it just kills me that it just says woods near Quantico, Virginia.

Steve

Right? Yeah, yeah.

Steve

I mean, they're at the FBI Academy. That's where they are. I know. That she's in. We can see she's in the woods.

Nic

It is very funny that it says woods. I. It's almost like on the sheet he wrote, okay, this is what I want for the description for this. And he wrote woods and say, right near Quantico, Virginia. And they wrote the whole thing.

Nic

They pulled a spinal tap on him. They literal Jonathan Demme didn't catch, though.

Steve

I also think, by the way, forest is much less spooky sounding than woods, so kudos for using woods. I feel like the woods are dark and foreboding. The forest is bright and green and.

Steve

And friendly with squirrels and shit.

Nic

Right. You have creatures in the forest and the woods is where you bury bodies.

Steve

That's right, exactly.

Nic

So.

Nic

So we're shown the Jodie Foster character, Clarice Starling, who's doing one of those tough mudder competitions. But it's not on social media for some reason. No. She's a student at the FBI Academy, and she's going through this rigorous physical obstacle course thing that they have. And at a certain point in it, instead of just waiting for her to finish the course and come back, the guy comes and finds her mid obstacle course and tells her, hey, I need you back at the thing.

Nic

She's like. Like, yeah, I was.

Steve

Was.

Nic

This whole thing's a loop. I was going to end up back there.

Nic

That was a little confusing to me. But it was, like, urgent that they needed to speak to her.

Steve

Did. Do you think that the messenger that went for, did he, like, do all the obstacles or do you think he ran around them?

Nic

That's the thing is, like, do you have to climb a cargo net to give her a message or can you just shout to the top of it?

Steve

Right. So, yeah, so she has. She's being beckoned by. I don't know what his exact sort of position is, but he's obviously a lead agent or an agent in charge here. Quantico.

Steve

His name is Crawford. And so she has to go find Mr. Crawford in his office because he's got something he wants to talk to her about.

Nic

And there's a couple visual things here that I think are good. They do a good job of making of, like, emphasizing how kind of small and slight the Jodie Foster character is. And you see that a little bit when she's on the obstacle course and when she's being spoken to by the messenger.

Nic

But then she goes into the building and she gets into an elevator and is like a foot shorter. It's an elevator full of all men who are wearing Basically, like the target uniform, red polos and khakis on, and. And she's like a foot shorter than all of us. So we see right away she's young, she's small, she's the only woman in a man's game. Like, it gives us that all very clearly without having to, like, talk about it too much.

Steve

Yeah, there's. They do a lot of stuff in the movie that really tries to show the issues or sort of the challenges that she has on top of what any FBI agent would have dealing with any case in particular. As a woman. There are so many things that happened to her that clearly wouldn't have happened to a man. They're just based on her gender.

Steve

And this was the first one. I agree. It's like they really, you know, kind of make it clear how kind of tiny she is in comparison a lot of these other guys. I also think that there is an important distinction where she's walking through to find Crawford's office in sweat, you know, with sweat marks all over her, like sweatshirt and sweatpants because she's working out. Whereas most of the people she's passing outside of the elevator, they're all wearing suits, clean cut and well cropped, whatever, you know.

Steve

And it's just yet another juxtaposition that is putting her at sort of a social disadvantage. Totally. She's there. Yeah.

Nic

Yeah.

Nic

And Crawford, played by the great Scott Glenn, who. I don't know if we've seen him in one of our films yet, but he's in the mix a lot during this era and he's really great in a lot of things.

Steve

Absolutely.

Nic

So he basically brings Starling into his office and tells her the situation is, we basically want you to talk to Hannibal Lecter. He doesn't give her a whole lot of information.

Nic

Do some recon, find out some stuff about this.

Steve

Well, he basically is saying, I'm going to give you a survey to take to him. We're trying to pick the brains of a bunch of incarcerated serial killers to figure out a profile. So that'll help us move forward and find others. Right.

Steve

It's sort of what she's told. And so it's basically just like, don't interact with him. Just you go, you deliver this survey, let him fill it out, you bring it back or something, whatever it is, or you leave it with him and he'll get it back, something. But that's all it really is. It does seem a little strange.

Steve

And she even kind of questions like, why? Why me? Or whatever. And he's like, oh, well, you know, you're a promising student, and, you know, your instructors all speak real highly of you, so this is something that I want you to do. And I think she even picks up, says something about, is it partly because I'm a woman?

Steve

He was like, that doesn't hurt. You know what I mean? And so he's. He's being open about the fact that he's sort of, you know, putting her there. Maybe he thinks Lecter will have a different reaction to a woman than he would to another man.

Steve

He mentions that they've gone and talked to Hannibal Lecter a few times trying to do this, and he just, you know, talks circles and. And doesn't really ever give them information that they want. Yeah. And so, yeah, like. And we don't.

Steve

We don't at this point know much about Lecter other than, you know, he's a cannibal. Because she even says, when she kind of whispers his name almost when he says Hannibal.

Nic

Right.

Steve

Hannibal the cannibal. And, you know, so we know this about him.

Steve

He's incarcerated.

Nic

What are the chances, by the way? I mean, if you're going to eat people, your name is Hannibal. I mean, God damn. Nominative determinism.

Nic

Right?

Steve

That's. I also feel like there's. I've always felt like the name so Hannibal rhyming with cannibal. And then also something about Lecter sounding like Lectern, which is like, where, you know, you give a speech in a church or you give, like, a sermon from a Lectern.

Steve

And, like, I always wondered if there's, like. That was also like a sort of a. Something that Thomas Harris was trying to, like, lean towards, that he's doling out this sort of, like, knowledge or wisdom or something. That always kind of struck me that way.

Nic

Yeah, I mean, I think that proves that.

Nic

Proves itself out as the movie goes on.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So they send Starling, and you're going to go talk to Lecter. And I wonder, too, do you feel that Crawford was being straight with Starling, or do you think he kind of knew in the back of his head, was like, oh, this might really fuck her up, or Lecter might really prey on her in a way that he doesn't, you know, like the converse of maybe he'll talk to you because you're a woman, or maybe he'll really try to take advantage of you?

Steve

Yeah, I think there was definitely an element of that, because I think a little later in the movie, he kind of admits that to her that, like, hey, like, I Sent you in there.

Steve

If I had sent you in there with a real agenda that you knew about, you know, then he would have seen through you and it never would have worked kind of thing. So there's definitely subterfuge here. There's definitely, definitely like, you know, a little sleight of hand happening. Whether he honestly believes that she would be in like, true danger or just like he might with her. Like, I don't know about, you know, if we necessarily get a good idea there.

Nic

And I guess, I mean, he's in a facility, she is an FBI agent. Like there should be a certain expectation of like, danger with that job. But also that she's safe because he's in a jail where he's been for the last 10 years.

Steve

Exactly. So, yeah, I don't think that he was like hoping or thinking that she would get in any real danger, but he was definitely like dangling her out there.

Steve

There was definitely this element of like using her as bait to sort of get what he wanted out of Lecter for sure.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Okay.

Nic

Well, I'm just curious your thoughts on that. So Clarice gets to the place where Lecter's being held.

Nic

And she's kind of being guided down the stairs by Dr. Chilton, who's kind of the mad scientist, whatever. He's the doctor in charge of these mentally insane, criminally insane, really high level criminals.

Steve

He's essentially the warden, right? But this is. This is the Baltimore Criminal Psychiatric Hospital or something.

Steve

But essentially they're all the inmates there are his patients. But really he's a warden more than anything. And one thing I want to point out. So this actor is this Anthony Heald playing Dr. Chilton.

Nic

Great actor.

Steve

Love him. Love to hate him. He is always a smarmy piece of shit. Like there's never a point. I cannot think of a single role Anthony Heald played where I didn't hate the character that he played.

Steve

Which only bolsters the statement that, that Anthony Heald's a very good actor. Because there's no way in real life that guy. I don't even know if he's still alive, but if he is or was, is like a piece of shit like that. You know what I mean? I'm sure he's a great guy, but he plays the smarmiest.

Nic

He's.

Steve

Oh, God.

Nic

Because if you just see his face in something, you're just like, ah, this guy, like, he's. He's up to something.

Steve

He's always trying to take the mountain back from the kids, you know, whatever.

Nic

Like, and he, you know, as he's kind of explaining, he's being partially informative towards Clarice, telling her, like, okay, watch out for this. Lecter's like this, be careful of this. But he's being extremely condescending to her and very pervy to her and like, flirting with her and trying to just in a creepy way. One of the guards there, who seems to be like one of the only nice people, right, Frankie Faison deals with it. The great Frankie Faison, who we've seen several times so far, named Barney.

Nic

He is very nice to Clarice as he, you know, it's gonna be okay, whatever. And they send her down the hallway. And Lecter's basically at the end this hallway. And there's several other prisoners lined up there. And they tell her, like, don't look at anyone.

Nic

Don't say anything. Stay to the right, right?

Steve

And I will note, however, there does appear to be another set of stairs at the end of the hallway near Hannibal's, you know, Lecter's cell. I don't know why they couldn't send her down that way.

Nic

They had to send her through the MIGs.

Steve

They had to send her past MIGs who get to here. So, yeah, so we don't. We don't we. I think there are four cells, or maybe there's three cells. And then Lecter cell.

Steve

And the three cells up to that point are all standard, you know, iron bars cells. Whereas Lecter's is like this glass thing. It's got some like, holes, I guess, for letting oxygen. So it's not like, you know, suffocate him. But really it's all glass.

Steve

There's no way to get through it. So as she's walking by these other three inmates, they're all shouting horrible stuff to him. And the last one before the one next to Lecter is migs. And he, you know, says something, you know, really gross, like, cover your ears if you're, if you're, you know, bad language bothers you, but I can smell your cunt, like, oh, just so. Just so dirty and gross and horrif.

Nic

We're so early in this movie, you know. And again, if you're on that Valentine's Day 1991 theater date, you're really.

Steve

You might be questioning things at this point. Yeah. And if not right now, in about 10 minutes, boy, you're walk out of the theater.

Nic

I don't know if the hole in the old popcorn bucket is going to get any use. Yeah. So she walks by and people are Being just this guy is just absolutely despicable. Because also imagine, like, what are they in there?

Steve

I mean, similarly, I mean, maybe not quite as bad.

Nic

Lecter with this notorious cannibal. Right, Exactly. And she begins to start talking with Lecter, and Lecter is fully in control. Even though he's imprisoned, he has no actual physical power. But it's amazing how the second she gets.

Nic

He's just fully in control during that whole conversation.

Steve

I want to wax poetic for just a bit about Lecter's initial appearance. I think it's so well done. It's one. I mean, honestly, there's so much in this.

Steve

It's great from Demi, but. But this and one scene later, I think, are really what. What solidified his Oscar win. The tension that gets ramped up on the walk to Lecter's cell is such that each of the. Each of the inmates she walks by are progressively, like, psychotic.

Steve

Like. Like actively saying horrible things or doing horrible things until we get to mix.

Nic

One guy's kind of climbing all over the place, right?

Steve

Yeah. And there's just all this craziness.

Steve

And it's, like, ramping up, up until Mig says that horrible thing to her. Whatever. But then you get to see Lecter. You know, she. She goes, one thing.

Steve

And you see him, Lecter, and he is standing perfectly still, not quite chest, you know, looking forward. He's, like, in a slight angle. You know, the kind of thing that you would do if you're, like, protecting your body from, like, an onslaught or you're watching multiple exits or something. Like, he's got this very tactical stance to him for some reason, but it's also completely calm, right? And.

Steve

And it's that calmness juxtaposed with what she just had to walk past that is so disarming in such a dangerous way. And just the tension buildup up to appearance, and then the way that they have him sort of posed and standing there is just all so brilliant. And then. And then from there, Anthony Hopkins takes over, right? And it's like the way he talks to her, the things that he says.

Steve

I mean, even, like, at one point, he asks her to come closer to talk to or whatever. And the way he says, closer, please, closer. It's just so good and so tense and wonderful.

Nic

He has no doubts in his head about, like, how do I get her. Her to do what I want her to do?

Nic

Like, he knows exactly what to say. He knows exactly the pace of everything. It's really apparent from that first scene. It's awesome. Great work by Everyone, Right?

Steve

Yeah. And it's clear, too, that he kind of gives away that there's more to this than this survey she's bringing. Because he asks her about Buffalo Bill.

Nic

His case comes up and Lecter does. Yeah, you're right.

Nic

Like, he knows a lot, but then he doesn't know a lot. You also don't know. Is he just being coy? Is he just trying to see like. Like, what does this agent know?

Nic

Because the way Lecter acts, you're like, all right, we're just subject to whatever this guy tells us. But we're not going to be able to learn anything about him if he doesn't want us to.

Steve

Right, Right.

Nic

He's asking her a little about herself, but then he tells her. She asks about his reputation, basically, as a cannibal.

Nic

And he says, a census taker tried to test me once. And I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti, which is a, you know, classic. A very classic lion there. So. Yeah, and he was just very casual about it because it wasn't even like, I killed him.

Nic

And then it was just like, I incidentally, ate his liver. And these were, you know, the side dishes.

Steve

Right? Yeah.

Nic

The wine pairing.

Steve

This was how I. Yeah, exactly. It's just very, very. Just matter of fact, right about it. Right. For sure.

Steve

So.

Nic

So then Clarice is. Is going to leave. Leave. Right.

Nic

She has to walk by all the same cells again. And Migs. Yeah, you know, Migs is pleasure. Really into the smell that he smelled earlier, apparently.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And he throws his results.

Steve

Emission, I guess we can call it.

Nic

Yeah. At Clarice, like, right in her face, honestly. I mean, context aside, impressive.

Steve

Great shot. Great shot.

Nic

If there was a dude perfect for being the biggest creep in the world. Like, Migs is, you know, their top influencer.

Steve

Absolutely.

Nic

So. So basically, you know, she's very upset. Electra calls her back briefly, you know, and tells her something and she runs out. She does not have the something about Mary hair when she leaves it. I like the restraint of the filmmakers to not make that a big deal.

Steve

No, they, they. By the time we see her again after getting, like, up the stairs, she's obviously cleaned up at some point as she leaves the thing. So. So he says something about look for Ms. Moffat and something. And then says something about, like.

Steve

Like you, you know, yourself. There was something about yourself. I can remember the exact link. But he's telling her to go look for a former patient of mine, Ms. Moffat. Yeah.

Steve

And she, you know, basically, we go back, she Is doing a little bit of research, whatever. And Crawford talks to her. It's actually funny. They show her, like back at Quantico. She was in Baltimore.

Steve

They show her back at Quantico and doing like. Like stuff like. Like, like running and like going to class, like, doing whatever. And then when she talks to Crawford, he goes, I know this morning was rough. And I'm like, this is one day.

Steve

Like, holy crap. But I guess, you know, in the life of an FBI agent or student or whatever, it's busy. But basically she says, amazing recovery. Yeah, basically she says there's. There's no Ms. Moffat in his patient records or anything like that that didn't get destroyed.

Steve

But there is like, yourself sounded way too specific the way he said that. So there is a yourself self storage in Baltimore or at the outskirts of. Or something like that. Right. And so she basically tells Crawford, I'm gonna go check it out.

Steve

She goes to this self storage place. I think it's like it's raining or it's nighttime or whatever it is. But the guy that's like, must be the owner and is like showing her around is so weirdly like Monopoly guy or something.

Nic

It's a bizarre character.

Steve

Very weird.

Steve

I can't even tell, like, if he's supposed to be like, wealthy or just eccentric or like, what. But it's very strange person.

Nic

Yeah. Super weird. And she's.

Nic

And she's trying to get the storage unit opening open and having a ton of trouble with it. This guy's standing there not helping it off. She looks to his driver, who's this enormous looking dude, and she's like, could he help me? He's like, oh, he. He doesn't.

Nic

He detests physical labor.

Steve

Physical labor, like, abhors physical labor. It's so strange.

Nic

So poor Clarice, once again, like, no respect. No.

Nic

No help from anyone. She has to get like, a car jack.

Steve

Yep.

Nic

And jacks the door up and then make sure to give him her business card and says, hey, if I get trapped in here, this is me. Everyone knows I'm with you.

Steve

Please help me. Right? Exactly. And she can barely get any. She actually cuts herself.

Steve

Her leg getting underneath the door because she can only raise it a few inches. Luckily, she's very small. She's able to get through. And this storage unit is absolutely packed. Oh, and we should.

Steve

We should mention that it said it was prepaid for 10 years. So there's only. There's two years left on it because Lecter's been away for eight under the name Ms. Moffat. So. So it's.

Steve

She. It's confirmation for her.

Nic

She found what she was looking for. Exactly.

Steve

She goes in and this storage unit is absolutely packed to the gilt with all kinds of stuff.

Steve

Just absolutely.

Nic

Biggest storage unit.

Steve

It's got to be 40 by 40ft or something. It's absolutely enormous.

Nic

I think it's where Jay Leno keeps his car.

Steve

Crazy. She does refer to it as a garage, which is a pretty appropriate, you know, because of the size. Pretty appropriate way to refer to it. One thing I noticed here, she really should have brought gloves with her at one point, she tries moving something she uses like a. Like a napkin or like a handkerchief.

Steve

Not sure why.

Nic

She's more of a travel kit, but yeah.

Steve

So she is looking around. She finds a car underneath. Underneath the tarp, pulls the tarp off, and then climbs into the back of the car.

Steve

And there is.

Nic

There's all kinds of creepy shit. I'm sorry, if you own multiple mannequins, go to jail tomorrow. Like, there's no reason.

Steve

Unless you're a dressmaker.

Steve

Yeah, exactly.

Nic

Seamster or seamstress.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

But, yeah, so. So she ends up discovering a jar, human head in a jar.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

And this is very kind of upsetting to her. We don't really see her getting out of there. It kind of goes back after her discovery to her speaking with Lecter.

Steve

That's right.

Steve

Yeah. This is interesting, too. He notices right away that she cut herself. Even though it's clearly not a large cut, he can tell whether he can smell the blood or something. Whatever it is, he can tell she's just recently injured, which is very creepy.

Steve

And basically she asks him about the head in the jar, but he wants. This is the whole thing about quid pro quo, right. Where he wants her to give him something, and then he'll give her something, whatever. So this is when they get in a little bit to her, a little bit to her background. Not everything, but a little bit of the background where she.

Steve

Both her parents. Well, her mom died when she was very young, and then her dad, who was a cop, died, and she was like 10 or 11, something like that. And then she was sent to a ranch in Montana where family had her. And then she said she ran away. She was only there for two months and she ran away.

Steve

And they try to get into it, but she won't get into it with him. This is also before she gets there, I think we find out that Miggs is dead.

Nic

Right. So we find that out because she goes in there And Lecter's cell is slightly different, I think. It seems like he has maybe less of his personal items.

Nic

But then on the tv, it's this kind of like, televangelist preacher guy. Which, you know, knowing what we know about Lecter's character, he's not watching that other than for research. Like, this is not something he's interested in.

Steve

Well, this. It's punishment, he says.

Steve

It's Chilton being a petty ass bitch. Right.

Nic

So he says to. He says to Clarice, like, as soon as you leave, they're going to turn this way up. But Lecter does know about the head in the jar guy.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

And he refers to the person as a fledgling killer.

Steve

Right. Who killed him? Yeah.

Nic

So it's like. And this was a former patient. These are all, like, patients of his, basically.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

So we find out he's killed Migs.

Steve

Right.

Nic

Which is crazy because it's like, how did he do that?

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

It's not like there's chow time and they're all playing Sorry together in the rec room.

Steve

Crawford said something on the phone when he was telling Clarice that Migs is dead.

Steve

And it was something about, like, the guards saw him talking to, like. Saw Lector whispering through the, like, holes in his cell. And Migs was real close, you know, to whatever. And then later they found him having choked on his tongue, I think, or something like that. Which is just like.

Steve

That's bizarre. I don't know what went on there. But anyway, he is being punished for the death of Migs. There is a line where she. He basically asks a really vulgar question about like, did your uncle on the ranch want to you?

Steve

Or something like that. And he. And she says, that's the sort of thing Migs would say. And he goes, not anymore.

Nic

Crazy.

Steve

I just. Sorry. I'm like, that's so funny to me.

Nic

He was fully, like.

Nic

He took her comeback, which is like, in that scenario. That is the best thing she could have said.

Steve

Oh, God, yeah.

Nic

It was a good line of prod at him a little bit. And he just rolled over that.

Nic

Like, he's just an old Osmobile hitting a slight speed bump. Like, you don't even feel it, dude. Amazing, Amazing Lecter stuff. So now we get a cut to a woman driving in a car. We're in Memphis now, and there's a little sing along to Tom Petty's American Girl.

Nic

Girl, which is a fun song to sing along, especially when you're by yourself.

Steve

I do think it's a little on the Nose. Given that all of the victims of Buffalo Bill are American girls, like, it's just kind of funny, but, like, yeah, that is the song that she's listening to and singing. Yeah.

Nic

But Buffalo Bill also won't back down.

Nic

So if we use that one.

Steve

I don't know.

Nic

Yeah. So this is. This is Chris.

Steve

What is her name? Christina Marks.

Steve

Right. Isn't that.

Nic

So we find out in a little bit.

Steve

Right, Right.

Nic

So it's clearly like, okay, here's.

Nic

Here's one of the victims, right. And she gets to her apartment and sees this man with a van, like, really struggling to load, like, a seat into the back.

Steve

He's got his hand bandaged up, so it's really hard for him to do it. Right. Before that, though, we do see that someone is watching her.

Steve

We get the sense it's the man with the van but with night vision goggles.

Nic

Right.

Steve

And so there's a really cool. That whole green sort of look that night vision goggles has. So we know that he's got these night vision goggles as it obviously comes into play later.

Steve

But this is Buffalo Bill. Like, this is. There's no. There's no surprise here. And he gets her in there by sort of, like, asking, you know, she offers to help, and it's like, okay, maybe if you could just get into the van, and I'll lift this up and, like, I'll push her back here.

Steve

So she does. And then he is. You know, and then he asks her, like, are you size 14? And she's like, sorry, crazy. Yeah.

Steve

And then he beats her unconscious, checks the tag on her shirt, and sure enough, she's a size 14. And he, like, cuts the back of it off and leaves it there. Now, I don't know if that's, like, intentionally like, a calling card thing, if that's what he's doing or what, but he does leave it there, and it later does come back to sort of tie her disappearance to his series of killings.

Nic

Yeah. I do want to say, for any future serial killers out there who are kind of size queens, you know, the size is really dependent on where you buy it.

Nic

So, yes, Catherine was a size 14. And what she was wearing, if it was from H and M, you know, maybe she. She's a size 18. And if it's from, you know, White House black market, Maybe she's a 12. They're all different.

Nic

So, you know, don't use that as your metric for murdering people.

Steve

No, exactly. Also, really watch out for, like, anything off a temu, because once you get into like Japanese and Korean styles. A lot of times the sizes are way off.

Nic

Yeah, absolutely.

Steve

Good point, good point, good note, good note.

Nic

So, yeah, I mean, really, really brutal. And I mean, God, do not be in the car. And when you're helping somebody load something, don't help people.

Steve

I gotta be honest with you.

Steve

You don't help people. Like, like if you're alone and it's dark and you don't know this person, you don't need to help that person. Just get in your house.

Nic

Yeah, just go to your house or death. It's just, it's a.

Steve

He's putting furniture in a van like, like it's not anything to do with you.

Nic

And let him struggle for a while. Her apartment was there. My plan personally would have been pretend I'm on the phone, walk in the apartment, watch this guy out the window for 20 minutes. If he's legit struggling still, I'll go home.

Nic

Maybe if he stopped struggling once I left.

Steve

Yeah. He looks like he's waiting for the next person to come by. Like. Yeah, it gives you a good sign.

Steve

All right, so then this means now that they have to head out to.

Nic

Oh, we get a quick flashback.

Steve

Oh, that's right.

Nic

To Clarice's dad's.

Steve

That's right.

Nic

It's kind of like back and forth because they're in the mortuary.

Steve

Right.

Nic

I believe. And in one of the rooms it's like there's a real funeral happening. And then through a couple doors, there's like where the mortician is actually working and the bottom bodies and stuff.

Steve

Because this is where we're in West Virginia now. They found the fifth, I think, or sixth body. I'm not even 100 sure at this point. I think it's the sixth because the sixth.

Nic

Because we saw the headline said Bill Skins fifth already.

Steve

So that already happened. So this is the sixth victim that they're tying to Buffalo Bill. And so they have to go check it on. She's of course, from West Virginia. I'm sure that's all very triggering for her when it comes to that stuff.

Steve

So, yeah, it looks like she's walking up to the funeral with this guy. And it turns out, yeah, we are in a flashback. We're looking at maybe 12 year old Clarice and when it's her dad's, you know, thing. And then we, we do jolt back to reality. There was a moment where Crawford says to the sheriff, like, you know, these kinds of crimes I don't want to talk about, like in full company.

Steve

And He. And he pulls him aside and I was first. I was thinking, like, that's total bullshit. Like, she's an FBI agent. Like, why.

Steve

Why do they. Why can you not talk about this around her? Just because she's a woman. It's complete crap. It did seem like he had an intention of, like, separating the sheriff away from everybody else to like.

Steve

And that was like, how he did it. Which it's, you know, okay, like, I get. I get that the motivation there was not actually to belittle her, but he of kind. Kind of used her gender and presence as a way to like, get something which is very crappy.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

But I love it too. He's then on the phone in the room with the body of the girl that's been found that they need to examine. And all these other, like, sheriff's deputies are just hanging out, being loud as hell. Crawford's trying to talk on the phone and it's Clarice who goes, okay, gentlemen, like, you know, I know she. She and her family appreciate that y' all gotten her this far, but, you know, let us take over.

Steve

We'll take good care of her. Her. Go on now. Go on, get. I just love, like the very like, take control, but also a little bit belittling she's being to them is awesome.

Steve

Like, it is. So it's so like she's able to.

Nic

Give them back a little of what. Because imagine, I mean, it didn't show it all in the movie, but what has her experience been in the hour, whatever that she's been there. Right.

Nic

So that probably felt good and good on her for being so new and being able to do that.

Steve

And there's a. There's a wrecking recognition from Crawford too, when she does that. He kind of smiles at her. Like, nice work.

Nic

Like, yeah, he's Crawford. Although I think ultimately he. He wants to her, but I think he thinks that she's a good agent and he wants to her. I think that's accurate and he is pretty supportive. And he gives her a lot of chances to do like, much bigger stuff than her position would normally call for.

Steve

Yeah, absolutely.

Nic

I do want to shout out the mortician in this film who we've seen many times before. One of our favorites, Trust Tracy.

Steve

Walter, Tracey. Walter.

Steve

Welcome back, buddy.

Nic

So Starling is basically given the task of giving the verbal autopsy notes into the tape recorder. So she's going around taking a look at it really big time experience. One acting thing. I mean, Jodie Foster here is unbelievable the way that you can tell she's so shook by this and shook by her experience over the last few days, of course, understandably.

Nic

But she's also realizing, like, this is the biggest shot I'm ever gonna get. Like, I can't break here. I can't be the girl who starts crying and goes home. Like, so watching her fight through that as she's taking the notes even before they find, like, the most disturbing shit is really, really well done by her.

Steve

Yeah.

Steve

And speaking of the most disturbing shit, she is the one that notices there is something behind her tongue or behind, you know, in her throat, like, whatever. And they, you know, they're using some tweezers, they pull out a little cocoon. So, you know, everybody's a little flabbergasted by it. But she. She takes it with her and goes to the Smithsonian.

Steve

One of the next scene is this awesome. She's walking around all the dinosaurs. Like, she's clearly like, in D.C. you know, at. At one of the Smithsonians or whatever. Right.

Steve

I guess.

Nic

Kind of the only comic relief in the entire movie.

Steve

Yes. We get a little Rosencrantz and Guildenstern here. Here in a minute.

Steve

But yeah, one of the two entomologists that she brings this. This cocoon to.

Nic

I wrote bug nerds, so I'm glad you knew that.

Steve

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was funny when I was talking to Heather about it while I was watching.

Steve

I use the word etymologist at first. That's of course incorrect. That's a linguist who studies the origins of words. An entomologist is a scientist who studies insects. So the entomologists there that she is discussing with one of the two of them, the slightly less weird looking one, played Bulldog on the TV show Frasier for its entire run.

Steve

And one thing that Heather and I love is Frasier. So it's funny to see Bulldog in this very, very different role because he's a sports, like, gonzo radio guy on that show. So.

Nic

But anyway, we're getting vocabulary and grammar here, folks.

Steve

So.

Steve

So basically the other one who isn't Bulldog hits on her and literally asks her out. She's just like, puts up with this shit from everybody, which is insane.

Nic

He's nice about it, but it must be annoying. I mean, he's not as bad as I'm sure others are.

Steve

He's not vulgar about it.

Steve

He asks her straight up, can I take you out? She said, you know, are you asking me? He said, yes, I'm hitting on you, like, whatever, you know, he's just very honest about him. When she says no, he doesn't push. So, like, that's all great, but, like, she shouldn't have to deal with that, period.

Steve

She do her job, you know? But, I mean, at least this guy. Yeah. Wasn't like a creep about it. He was just very forward.

Nic

So they. So they find out now what this specimen was, and they're able to determine that it's this moth that's called the death's head moth, and it's not native to anywhere near us. Where did they say it came from? Like Suriname or something.

Steve

Suriname or Singapore or Nepal.

Nic

Okay.

Steve

And it was, like, basically, like, kind of like southeastern Asia to eastern Asia. You know, something in that ballpark.

Nic

So it's not fly in here. No, it's.

Steve

It was shipped in.

Nic

Absolutely imported. It's super out of place here.

Steve

Yeah. And the entomologists even say, like, somebody loved this bug, basically.

Steve

Somebody really had to, like, take care of it, keep it warm. Like this was cared for. This wasn't just random.

Nic

It's like having an orchid or something like that. Like, it.

Nic

It requires a high degree of care just to keep it alive.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

Right.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

So.

Nic

So this is crazy news that we find. And now we're kind of back to.

Steve

Buffalo Bill layer, where there are a lot of moths.

Nic

Moths all over the place. Just this horribly creepy, disgusting.

Nic

I mean, they do such a good job of making his place just. It makes your skin crawl.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And. And then he has a well in there.

Nic

And there at the bottom of it, like Ra's Al Ghul is Catherine sitting there, and Bill is making some kind of. I think he's using his sewing machine. You could see he's kind of making some type of suit.

Steve

He's sewing some leather, it looks like.

Nic

Yeah. So Catherine's mom is a senator. So that's kind of. We're not sure if that's why she was targeted. But anyway, it's somebody who's important and get on TV and try to get this solved.

Nic

So we kind of see her mom on TV pleading to the killer. And they're being very. The cops are being very complimentary of the way Catherine's mom is. The senator is talking. They're like, oh, she's very good at this.

Nic

She's really appealing the correct way to this person. This is somebody who's very smart and thought out.

Steve

Here she's using her name over and over again, referring to her as Catherine, Catherine, Catherine, all this stuff. And we notice when Bill is interacting with Catherine from above the well and giving her the famous. Sort of like, it puts the Lotion on its skin.

Steve

Like, he keeps calling her it. Yeah, right. That's very deliberate. He wants to dehumanize so that it makes this all easier for him. So the fact that Senator Marks is using her daughter's name over and over again on the TV is smart.

Steve

Now, I don't even know for sure we know that Bill sees her statements or not. They don't make it clear. I don't think he's not sitting there watching it or anything like that.

Nic

It depends on if he was at a bar or not at the time. So.

Nic

Hey, turn that up.

Steve

Turn that up. Yeah, but. Yeah, so. So that's.

Steve

There's interaction between them, and she's basically just pleading for her life. And he is getting frustrated with her. And this interaction between them is very tense, and it's clear that he has designs and she's not safe. And then I think it's when the basket comes back up with the lotion in it. She sees blood marks all over the wall.

Steve

Did I jump ahead?

Nic

We're a little ahead, but let's talk about that. Because when Catherine is down there. Yeah. I mean, so she's already in this most horrifying situation.

Nic

The way that Bill is talking to her is crazy. And again, the acting by that actor. And why does his name slip me right now? This is a guy whose name I should know, but he's, like, having this restraint, but it's different. Like, Lecter just seems naturally restrained, in control.

Nic

And Bill is trying desperately to be in control while he's saying it, puts the lotion on his skin. And he's like, all right, what would a guy do to try to be nice, to ask this? And I can do it three times in a row. And then I get visibly frustrated. And his voice is so weird.

Steve

Put the lotion in the basket. It's just so weird.

Nic

But then when Catherine, she sees this, you know, fingernail and blood on the wall. So it's like, I'm not the first one to be thrown in this fucking. Well.

Nic

And she starts screaming. And the most horrifying thing is Bill's, like, mocking screaming of her.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So she's screaming, and he's just going, oh. Oh, my God, what a good job.

Nic

I mean, this is, like, really the horror of this movie. It's just this guy, again, referring to as an it. Referring to her as an it. Like, this is somebody who does not see you as human and you're his prisoner. It's.

Nic

It's nuts.

Steve

All right, so I think back into where the Plot for sure. Where we were is now we've got Clarice bringing a deal to Lecter, right?

Nic

Oh, yes.

Steve

That's where we're at.

Steve

So. So she has arrived with a deal. She says, senator Marks, her daughter, has been captured by Bill. If you help us by looking through the case file. And help us find him.

Steve

And we're able to save her life. You get to be transferred to. You know, it's maximum security still, but it'll be like this. This jail with, like, a view of the woods nearby. And one week a year, they'll take you to this, like, animal sanctuary or whatever.

Steve

And, you know, under heavy guard, you'll be allowed to walk on the beach and be outside. And like, that's it. That's the best you can get. But if you do this, you can have those things. And he had said, like, I want a view.

Steve

I want to see the outside.

Nic

Right. And he wasn't even trying in any of his negotiation. He's not like, I want out of here. He's just like, I know I'm going to spend the rest of my life imprisoned.

Nic

I just want to be able to. I need some prison guys.

Steve

Like, I want it to be. You know.

Nic

We also get a clever girl from Lecter, which I really.

Nic

I enjoy. A clever girl in any kind of film from the 90s, we'll have to.

Steve

Watch for Jurassic Park. Definitely some clever girl in that one, too.

Nic

But, yeah, I mean, him getting into Clarice's life once again.

Nic

You know, he finds out that she was on this ranch. And he finds out that she was disturbed by the. Or that there was, like, cow and sheep on the ranch. So that's how far he's gotten in learning about her life so far.

Steve

Yeah, I think that's right.

Steve

It was. It was not. It was horses and sheep. Was a cattle ranch. He said, no, sheep and horses.

Steve

And so that's. But that's as far. So. But he keeps getting little bits. Right, right.

Steve

Every time they talk, he gets, like, a little more. More info about that. And so. Yeah.

Nic

So it was a fake deal.

Nic

Yes, as it turns out, we find this out.

Steve

And.

Nic

And it was. You know, I. I don't think Clarice knew at the time, but Crawford had sent her there with this deal. And he knew.

Nic

You know, he was just like, well, I had to try it. You know, they're like, you sent him with a fake deal. I had to try. And there was a couple elements to it that Lecter was like, it's very clever that this island Was like some island that's, you know, quarantined because of.

Steve

Anthrax or whatever the fuck.

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

So Lecter now is gonna come face to face with the Senator, who is going to, you know, has an actual deal for him.

Steve

Right. There's a thing where basically Dr. Chilton at the hospital had, like, a listening device in Lecter's cell. So he's listening, and here's what the deal and what the offer is.

Steve

So he's the one who contacts the Senator, finds out the deal's fake, and then makes a real deal with her. And basically is going to bring Lecter to Memphis to talk to her, which seems like a bad idea. Yeah, seems like. But I'm not Dr. Chilton. What do I know?

Nic

I mean. Yeah, but Lecter. I mean, to their credit, you know, for saying we're bringing this dangerous person there. They have him locked the fuck down. And this is where we start to see, like, the iconic restraint devices that are used on him.

Steve

The mask. Yeah, yeah.

Nic

It's like. It's like he's in, like, a catcher's mask that comes to the middle of where his nose comes off his face.

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

Face.

Nic

And is absolutely crushing his nose into his face.

Steve

The cartilage on the tip of the nose just being squished super hard.

Nic

When we were watching this, genie was like, you know, beside herself. She's like, he doesn't even have that big of a nose. She was like, I know a lot of people.

Nic

She's like, I have a bigger nose than that. I would get absolutely decimated if I got put in that thing, you know, so. And then he's in the. The face mask with the kind of bars over his mouth and on the dolly and all restrained and stuff. And they wheel him up to the Senator, and once again, the look on his face.

Nic

He's not just like, oh, what's happening to me? He's just kind of like, yeah, wheel me over there. I have some shit to say. Very in control.

Steve

Yeah.

Steve

And he says. I mean, he initially gives a name, right? This is when he gives. Was it like Lewis Friend or something like that? Right?

Steve

So the name he gives for who Buffalo Bill is. And so they kind of take that. But then he says some real horrible stuff to the Senator, too. About, like, breastfeeding Catherine and did it make your nipples hurt or something? All this kind of stuff.

Steve

And they're just, like, pissed. And it's just kind of like. I find it funny sometimes when he does things like that, because it's like, obviously he has A purpose to it. Yeah. And I can't.

Steve

But I don't know if it's like he wants them to do something or he just wants to unnerve people. You know what I mean? Like, it's funny.

Nic

Yeah. It almost seems like he's trying to throw him off balance.

Nic

And, like. Yeah, you're a parent and you deal with, like, random strangers asking you inappropriate things about your kids. And I've definitely had people ask about my kid, like, was she breastfed? Or whatever.

Steve

Right, right.

Nic

And I'm normally just kind of like, that's none of your fucking business. But imagine them following that up with it. Toughens your nipples, doesn't it? It's like, oh, God, get out of here.

Steve

My note I wrote in my book at that point was literally, he's such a dick.

Nic

He's really bad.

Steve

He goes, love your suit.

Nic

So Dr. Chilton, though, as he was kind of like, signing Lecter out of the just transporting him, it kind of showed that he had left his pen somewhere. And then we get to the point where Lecter's being delivered to the new holding facility in Memphis, and Chilton has to sign for it. He can't locate his pen.

Nic

He has to borrow somebody else's pen. So Lecter has the pen, right?

Steve

Exactly.

Nic

One of the security guards deputies at this place, one of our favorites, the great Charles Napier.

Steve

Okay.

Steve

Yep, yep.

Nic

Who's Doyle?

Steve

Yeah, Lieutenant Doyle. And he. He is in more movies that have an under 5 rating on IMDb than, like, anyone in history.

Steve

Like, it's so funny how many bad movies Charles Napier is in. But he's also in a bunch of, like, great stuff, too. Yeah. Rambo, First Blood Part 2, and, like, the Blues Brothers. Blues Brothers, Yeah.

Steve

I mean, there's. But then there's also, like, Jury Duty and, like, this is some really bad three. I think he's in one of the three Ninjas movie, but not the original one of the sequels. You know what I mean?

Nic

High Noon at Mega Mountain, starring Oscar winner Charles Napier.

Steve

Comes to visit to visit Lecter and talk. Because basically, she doesn't believe the name is correct. Like, she believes that she says something to him. Like, your anagrams are showing.

Nic

Yeah.

Nic

She's like, he's not giving us the real information. Clarice has to go in and, like, sign in to the. And the cops have all been told, like, nobody sees Lecter. And they're just like, yeah, but.

Steve

Yeah, but she actually kind of has to lie to them.

Steve

Right? Because they say, like, Chilton has said everything's locked down. She goes, oh, I'm with. I was just outside with Dr. Chilton just now. Like, I'm with.

Steve

And like, oh, okay. All right. They let her in. She talks again.

Nic

Her being like a woman, smaller, less of a threat, maybe got her in there.

Steve

Might have. Yeah, for sure. And then. So she's talking to Lecter. And they continue, you know, his psychoanalysis of her past, Right?

Steve

And so she says, I don't believe the name. I think you're. I think you're lying. I think it's an anagram. Because she actually says what the anagram was.

Steve

I don't remember now, but. But it. You know, she calls him out, basically, and then he's asking more and more.

Nic

Iron sulfide is what Lewis friend. Which is full school's gold.

Steve

Yeah, there you go. So. So she. He asks her more about, well, why did you run away? Like, how did that.

Steve

What happened? Right. And she. This is when the sort of title of the film is revealed in some way, right? Where it's.

Steve

She talks about how she heard screaming, woke up in the middle of the night, went out to the barn. And basically they were slaughtering lambs for meat. And the screaming was just absolutely insane. And she tried to save one of them. She, like, grabbed one and ran into the woods.

Steve

But it was so heavy, she couldn't carry it. She ended up. The sheriff came and found her, you know, on the road, or the picture took her home. And her uncle was so angry that he sent her to live in an orphanage. Like, you're not gonna live with us anymore.

Steve

You're, like, ruining my lamb farm or whatever the fuck.

Nic

Crazy.

Steve

And so he asks, like, did you think if you saved one that the screaming would stop? Like, she's like, I still wake up hearing it, or whatever. And he's basically saying, like, you're trying to silence the lambs by.

Steve

By saving one. And now you're trying to do it by saving Catherine.

Nic

Right?

Steve

That's what you're doing right here. And so, yeah, so there's that.

Steve

But then that's when Chilton comes in. Along with a bunch of the Memphis police. And they're like, she's not supposed to be here. And they try to take her away. I think Lecter returns the case file to her at that point.

Nic

Yeah. So she's trying to get Lecter to say the name again. During the scene, like you mentioned earlier with Lecter and Lecture. He is a professor during this scene. Breaking stuff down to Clarice is very good.

Nic

Yeah. So he's just about to tell her the real name, and then they bust in and he's just like, well, that's the bed. Instead of just being like, here's the name. So they try to pull her out, but he hands her her files back and then gives her the creepiest little, like 1cm stroke onto her finger. When his finger touches hers, it made.

Steve

Me like, like itch. Like, it made my hands feel like.

Nic

Oh, my God, so bad.

Steve

So, yeah, so now I think we're to dinner. Time for lecture.

Steve

Time for lecture in so many ways.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So, like, it's Boyle and one other Pembri, I think is the other name of the other cop bringing actual meal to him. And they've got a whole system set up. They're like, they're gonna have him because he's in this middle of this huge room, it's almost like an auditorium, but in the middle, they've put up this, like, he looks like Magneto in, like, the X Men, right?

Steve

But he's in these bars and it's like this area, but he's got like a nice desk and chairs and a bed and whatever. But it's like, know he's in this cell and it's bars all the way around in the middle of this big room. And so they have him sit with his hands outside the bar so they can cuff him, you know, to the bars themselves. But he has a piece of pieces of the pen, so he's got a little lock pick, basically. I guess those old handcuffs were just super easy to pick because it never seems to take any effort at all.

Nic

I really want to try because. Yeah, it is crazy. We should do a podcast where we're both handcuffed during the podcast and then to see who gets out first.

Steve

I'm not doing that.

Nic

So.

Nic

So they have to present like your. Your Magneto comment is. Is well taken because I don't think they do the best job of preventing him from getting certain shit here. Like, his dinner plate had a glass salt and pepper shaker.

Steve

I noticed that.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And I think metal utensils.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Which is. Seems bad.

Nic

I mean, I don't know, man. Or they're like, Lecter's too polite to not use the cur. Correct fork to kill you with.

Steve

They. I have to mention here, they.

Steve

They actually, they said this was his second dinner and that he demanded lamb extra rare. So it's clearly he's thinking about the whole, like, lamb story from Clarice, and that's why he order lamb chop extra.

Nic

Rare, something like that.

Steve

Right? But basically what happens is he is able to undo his handcuffs and.

Steve

And handcuffs boil to the bar. Y. Right. So he's able to get it onto Boyle's wrist and then onto the bar. So now he's.

Steve

If not. Not. You know, he's basically incapacitated is at this point. So he attacks the other cop and just goes straight to eating his face. Like, just jumps on him and is just.

Nic

And this chomps right in one of.

Steve

The more brutal kind of kills. Like, we've seen a lot of. We've seen like dead bodies. We've seen people in horrific situations.

Steve

But like, there was something very visceral about this scene of Hopkins attacking Pembry or, you know, Lector attacking Pembry and chewing on his face and coming away with a bloody mouth. Like all. It's like much more visceral than the movie had been to this point.

Clarice Starling (The Silence of the Lambs)

Point.

Steve

But yeah.

Nic

And then the beating of Boyle with the nightstick, I mean, it doesn't. Again, it doesn't show any of him getting hit. It just shows Lecter's face as he's hitting and it's like, dude, it's almost like orgasmic for him. Or not even orgasmic. It's just like.

Nic

Yeah, like getting into a hot tub. Like, okay, this is how I should be. Like, I feel. I feel good now.

Steve

It's.

Steve

There's almost no reaction, right? He's not. He's not like grimacing or like. Like, like, oh, I'm doing this. I'm gonna get you whatever.

Steve

Almost no reaction, but what little reaction there is. Yeah, it's like, really?

Nic

He's like, satisfied.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. It's just satisfaction, which is like, I've.

Nic

Been constipated, needing to murder somebody, and I finally get to release that.

Steve

And so. So now then there's this weird thing where they start seeing the elevator go up and down. I get the sense that he is on the third floor of a five story building. Yeah.

Steve

So they've got the. The cops down on the ground floor. See the elevator. Elevator moving from the third and going up to fifth instead of coming back down because the guys should be coming down after delivering his meal. Instead it goes up and they're like, what?

Steve

And then they hear a gunshot. Like, what? And then the thing goes back down to three and they're like, oh, this is so crazy.

Nic

I Like, nobody went for the stairwell during that whole thing. They're just sitting there, Uvalde, just watching.

Steve

Well, let's see where the elevator ends up. So it does stop at three and Then they use the stairs. They do go up the stairs, they come in, and what they are grand greeted with is Boyle strung up, wrapped in an American flag above Lecter's cell, which, of course, the door is open and Lecter is not there. Yeah. And then Pembri, they believe, lying on the floor.

Steve

Yeah. And, you know, he's got his uniform, his badges, name tag and everything. Lying before, bloodied and just whatever. But breathing. Yeah.

Steve

And so they go, oh, my God, this one's alive. Like, let's do, you know, whatever.

Nic

And the way Boyle is strung up is crazy. I mean, it's like he's, you know, like an angel kind of. And.

Nic

And the light is coming through at a perfect angle. I mean, good on Lecter for taking the extra time to make sure he properly displayed a dead body.

Steve

Now, having seen the movie and then knowing how the plot goes, everything, whatever, I still really think when I looked at, quote, unquote, Pembri lying on the floor, it so clearly looks like Anthony Hopkins. It is so clearly Lecter physically.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

I didn't even notice at first that he was wearing the face, which we'll get to. But, like, the initial shot, I mean, that just looks like Anthony Hopkins. But how do they.

Nic

Not so beaten up. It was hard.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. So. So. But, yeah, but basically they. They put Pembri.

Steve

They actually cover his face because there's so much damage to his face, or from what they can tell, they cover it in a towel. So now they're not looking closely at him. And again, he's wearing Pembri's outfit. They put him in the elevator to go back down. Yeah.

Steve

When suddenly blood drips from the ceiling of the elevator, and they're like, oh, Lecter must be up there. Right.

Nic

And this is good cop work. So I feel like the elevator guys, incompetent. You didn't go for the stairwell.

Nic

You waited too long. But now the blood rips. Nobody says anything. And they do. My favorite thing is where you just, like, use your gun to point at stuff and gesture towards stuff.

Steve

Right. And then he was actually on the. On the. On the walkie talkie, the cop kind of in charges with the one with the crazy mustache. And he goes, yep, sir.

Steve

That the best we can tell, he's up on. He's up on five. That's where he's at. You know, because now they feel like they know he's there, but they won't want him to hear them say that.

Nic

Right.

Steve

Very smart. Very smart move. Right. One thing I noticed is all These, like, SWAT dudes that are like, involved, like in. And charging in on this, they're all wearing black.

Steve

None of them have any insignia on. They have no badges, patches on their shoulders. They're not wearing badges or names. It's like the most bizarre looking, all black outfit, like, very.

Nic

They couldn't get a sponsorship for one of the major law enforcement organizations.

Steve

I can't imagine the FBI liked that they were involved in this movie at all. But, like, basically, they look like ice without the, like, bandana masks, basically. But yeah, so. So they send up dudes to above, like, I guess to like, the fourth floor to look down in the elevator shaft. They believe that Lecter is on of top.

Steve

Top of the elevator. And the. The cop that. There's two cops that are up kind of looking down. And the one that's like, talking to him, like, Lecter, like, raise your hands, whatever.

Steve

That guy, that actor plays Chief Grady in Super Troopers. The. The. The. The.

Steve

The.

Nic

The City Shenanigans, guys.

Steve

Well, no, but it's not.

Nic

It's not Brian Cox.

Steve

That's the Shenanigans.

Steve

He's the. But the. Their enemy cops are the city cops. So he runs the city cops.

Nic

Nice.

Steve

Love that movie. But. But anyway, so he's like, oh, you know, he's like, okay, shoot him. You know, so they actually like, shoot his leg. The other cop has got, like, a right.

Nic

Turns out cops can do that.

Steve

Yeah, exactly. And. And so he shoots him in the leg, but no reaction. Like, no reaction at all.

Steve

They're like, that's super weird, right? So they go to. Now we go back down to the elevator and they open up the, like, hatch in the ceiling. And who falls down, but not Hannibal Lecter. Yeah, it's Pembry in Lecter's clothes.

Steve

And he ain't got no face, right? It is just ripped up. At which point we cut to the ambulance, right?

Nic

So this is a great. Like, the way this is edited is so good too, because we cut to the ambulance where Lecter's kind of like unwrapping the towel from his face and unhooking.

Nic

You know, he's been hooked to some regular IVs and stuff. And then you see a woman, like, get a phone call back at Quantico or whatever, just horrified, starts running down the hallway. And then it is basically, you know, Lecter has taken out. He killed the ambulance people, killed another guy, wearing.

Steve

Wearing Pembry's face.

Nic

Like, full on crazy. The way he peels the face off so bad. And like, the reveal Is you still don't see because he's still really bloody.

Steve

Yes.

Nic

So you know that it's Anthony Hopkins, but it's not just like a perfect vision of Anthony Hopkins.

Steve

Sure, it's demonic.

Nic

Like, dude, it is. It is nuts. But what a. What a memorable fucking really cool scene.

Steve

And almost the last time we see him. Like, it's basically the last time we see Lecter. Inside the plot, there's a very brief moment. This is kind of it for his role in this story, at least. Right.

Steve

Everything from here on is Clarice figuring shit out for herself, basically. And so she is talking to a friend of hers at the FBI and they're sort of chatting through the different victims and all this stuff. And she said, like, oh, like, you know, Lecter said, like, you know, that he covets. And what do we covet? Well, we covet what we see.

Steve

Like, we can't covet something to know about. And they realized the first victim, it must have been somebody he knew. Let's go to the town where the victim was in Belvedere, Ohio, I think they said. Right. And it's really smart.

Steve

I will say. I think they gave this first victim the strangest first name. Frederica.

Nic

Oh, yeah.

Steve

Frederica Bevel Bimmel.

Steve

Yeah, Frederica Bimmel. Like, what the hell kind of name is Frederica? But they call her Freddie or whatever. It's fine. But just very strange.

Steve

I sometimes find myself taken out of a movie when a character's name is so odd.

Nic

Oh, yeah. It's like you talked about the secret of my success. Like, certain. Certain names are just too exact.

Steve

Like. Yeah. I mean, I would have accepted Brantley before Frederica. It's very strange. But no.

Steve

Yeah. So there's that and work. Oh, God, that's right.

Nic

The river.

Steve

I really got a lot of really messed up character names.

Steve

Add Frederica Bimmel to the list because. Good God.

Nic

So Clarice is. Now she's starting to investigate that. And she goes to Frederica's house and talks to her dad.

Steve

Yes, exactly. You know, kind of looks through her.

Nic

One of my favorite, like, opening when. When a cop shows up to talk to, like, a family member of a victim.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

When it just cuts to the family member saying, I'll tell you the same thing I told everybody else. I love that.

Steve

Been through this about 10 times with all the different law enforcement agencies. Keep. I'll tell you, the other fella came back.

Steve

Yeah. Right.

Nic

So she's looking through and she's given permission to kind of search Frederica's room. And she comes to this music box, and for some reason, like, decides, oh, there's probably a false top in this.

Steve

I think she could see there's, like, a lining, like, almost like a velvet lining in the thing.

Steve

I think she could tell it had been picked away. Like, it doesn't look solid. It's like. Well, is there a reason that they're. Oh, look what's back here.

Steve

It's a bunch of Polaroids. Yeah, right. It's the a. It's the 1991 version of having, like, you know, nudes on your phone. Right?

Steve

Absolutely. But it's Polaroids.

Nic

Underwear, Polaroids.

Steve

Yeah. Sort of boudoir shots.

Steve

Right. For her. So obviously, there was someone in her life that she was taking photos for. Someone else had to take these photos, you know, and then give them to her because it's clear, you know, there were no selfies.

Nic

Right.

Steve

On Polaroid. Somebody had to take the photo. Right. So there's that.

Nic

Frederica has, you know, she fits the profile of what they've been discussing of a Buffalo Bill victim.

Nic

She's a little on the bigger side. She's, like, in the zone of. Of.

Steve

Yeah, I don't think we mentioned that kind of important detail. So what they found is that Buffalo Bill would keep his victims alive for three days after capturing them before they would be killed, is what they believe.

Nic

Right.

Steve

And the reasoning, it sounds like he was doing was picking larger women and then starving them, basically three days so that their skin would get loose, they would get, like, dehydrated, and they would lose a little bit of weight, just like, whatever. And then he could skin the mortal recently.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

What is what it seems like.

Steve

And so, yeah, this woman fits. Yeah, fits the. The Bill perfectly. And so they. I think at this point, we cut back to Bill's house, right.

Steve

And we go and we. We see Chris, Catherine with a rope and a bucket, trying to capture Precious the dog. Right. Isn't that what we're. Yeah.

Steve

So.

Nic

So one thing that Clarice sees before she leaves Frederica's house is she's looking through the closet and notices, like, the dress with the pattern cut out of it, and it's clicks with her. Like he's making himself a woman.

Steve

A woman suit. Exactly.

Steve

Yeah. Because the same. The diamond packs on the patches on the back of this dress match what was cut out of Frederica's back, basically. Or. No, no, not a friend of the most recent victim.

Steve

Most recent victims back. And so, yeah, so that sort of gives her this clue, like, oh, my God, that's what's happening. That's why he's skinning them. He's like. He's a seamster.

Nic

He's right.

Steve

Putting these things together.

Nic

And she calls Crawford that. She's like, hey, like, I know what's happening. And Crawford's like, shut up, honey.

Nic

The men have this. Don't worry about it. We're on our way.

Steve

Right?

Nic

And she's like, cool, I'll come meet you.

Nic

He's like, don't worry, sweetheart. We got this.

Steve

And I don't even remember where, like, what. What state they were in a different state. They weren't even in Ohio.

Nic

So we're heading towards Calumet City. Illinois.

Steve

Illinois, that's right.

Nic

Home of the Blues Brothers, I believe. And very nice.

Nic

And then she said, she's 400 miles away.

Steve

Right. So no time to get here.

Nic

She's not going to get there for the arrest or whatever.

Steve

To his credit, he said, you're.

Steve

You know, you're one of the main reasons we got here, Starling. We won't forget that. Like, so he is giving credit to, like, you know, that she was a.

Nic

Guy that doesn't necessarily just want to fuck her. A guy who does seem like he legitimately trying to be professional to some.

Steve

Extent for this, for the standards of 1991. He's trying to be professional, right. Standards were lower back then. So this is the scene where now we've got. We're in Buffalo Bill's house.

Steve

And this is absolutely one of the most impressive sequences of. In. In Hollywood history.

Nic

Crazy.

Steve

Absolutely amazing misdirection.

Steve

Jonathan Demme crushes this entire sequence. So we have this combination of cuts back and forth. One set of cuts is to Buffalo Bill's place. So it's Bill, he's in the basement. Catherine's there.

Steve

And it's either him and he is putting on makeup. He's wearing. You could call it a wig, but it's clearly a woman has been scalped. And he has kept, you know, the. The skin and the.

Steve

And the hair, and he's put it on. And this is the whole, like. What is that song?

Nic

Goodbye, horses.

Steve

Goodbye, horses.

Steve

Thank you. While Catherine is trying to lure Precious into the well.

Nic

Yep.

Steve

But while we're cutting to her, into him in this thing, we're also then cutting to this establishing shot of the house. But we've never seen the outside of Buffalo Bill's house.

Steve

We have no idea what it looks like. This is.

Nic

This is where the FBI is showing up.

Steve

This is where they. So they got the whole, like, you Know the flower delivery van.

Steve

Like. Right. But it's like.

Nic

And Clarice has also. Sorry, in the meantime, has said, like, there's a woman likes, I need to talk to this person.

Steve

Because she found that Frederica used to do.

Nic

Oh, she did custom work for this woman.

Steve

For this woman. I can't remember the name of that woman now, but. But basically, like, it.

Steve

It's somebody that Frederica worked for, who she was over there a lot. And he. She's wondering, you know, okay, is this. Can I talk to this woman? And maybe does she have an adult son or some other male person who lives with her?

Steve

Maybe that person would be a suspect kind of thing.

Nic

So those are, like, the four things. We're going back and forth between all this.

Steve

Cutting back and forth. And it's all intense and very tension building and all this stuff.

Steve

So what we see is. Is a few things happen. And again, the ordering is a little fuzzy to me now, even though I just watched this the other day. But Catherine does capture Precious at some point. Bill freaks out about that and goes to get his gun, which is upstairs in the house.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

Then the doorbell rings. And so he has to, like, go. Or that's when he goes up. It's at the door.

Steve

While the FBI is, like, ringing the doorbell at the house. They're at. The doorbell is ringing and Bill's basement. We're right there. There.

Steve

But then we see Bill.

Nic

Before we jump in, just a couple details real quick here. Because when. When Catherine is down in the well, she's trying to kind of fish for the dog.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

And at first, you know, she finally sees that. That the dog has followed this bone, and she's there at the top, and Catherine gives a yank to the bucket, and the bucket just comes down. The dog doesn't get pulled.

Steve

That's right. She's.

Nic

And she's so devastated. The acting that she's doing there. The other thing that she's doing is as she's trying to call the dog, she's, like, trying and failing to whistle, which I feel like is just so, like, oh, my God, dude. Like, she's so desperate. She's trying to.

Nic

Like, I. I think it's just really well done to show that overcome her. But then she finally ends up getting Precious down. It doesn't really show Precious, like, falling.

Steve

No.

Nic

But into it.

Nic

But she gets Precious in the world.

Steve

She does have the dog at one point because she yells up to Bill, like, I got your.

Nic

I got your dog. You dogs hurt. So Bill also, while he's Doing dressing up and singing along to this song.

Nic

He steps back at a certain point after doing the would you fuck me, fuck me? And then does one of the most iconic dick tucks of all time. And the reason I have to bring this up is a. I mean as an actor, to be able to be that creepy again is amazing. But this is a movie that started getting around among my friends in college a bit and, and I remember going to a college friend's wedding and being woken up by my friend who bashes on our hotel door. I open the door and he's standing there in a robe with a little Bose speaker and he's playing Goodbye Horses.

Nic

And then all of a sudden he just drops his robe and he's fully tucked and does the thing for 30 seconds and then moves to the next room. He did this to all of our friends at the hotel at that point wedding. And now he is a well respected surgeon in the Dallas area. So I just want to say never give up on your dreams, folks.

Steve

Absolute legend.

Steve

That's awesome. That's amazing. Yeah.

Nic

So, okay, so all the tension is built up. So now we have.

Nic

Bill's going to answer.

Steve

Going answer the door.

Nic

Yeah, yeah, we have. The FBI's coming up to a door. Is coming up to a door.

Steve

And we don't know that's. See, that's a real important key. We don't know where Starling is yet. So we haven't seen Clarice go to a door.

Nic

She's going to some.

Steve

We have, we were told she's going to go to a house. We haven't seen her in. These cuts back and forth. But every time they cut between the FBI outside the house, they're at ringing the doorbell to deliver these flowers, right. We see this like really horrific looking like light and buzzer going off in Bill's basement to tell him his doorbell's ringing.

Steve

So he does go up and when he answers the door, it's Clarice.

Nic

Right.

Steve

Not the FBI.

Nic

That's where we see her. And that's like a huge shock.

Steve

Then we see the FBI bust in to the house. They're at.

Nic

House was empty.

Steve

That's right. They go in the house.

Steve

That's right. And so Clarice now is talking to. She doesn't know this, but talking about Fleet asking about this Mrs. Lipscomb or the name.

Nic

Oh, Mrs. Litman. Okay, I do have that.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

They go Litman and asking, he says, oh yeah, I bought the house, you know, a couple years ago from her. Like. Yeah. So I don't know anything about her other than that, you know, kind of thing.

Steve

I think the reality, of course, is that he is her son. I think. I think that's what we're being shown here because she. At some point, Clarice ends up. Up.

Steve

Shit. Goes upstairs or. Or. Or into a bathroom at some point and like, sees a corpse in a tubs. But I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but I think that's the idea is that like he has like let his mother rot or maybe it is some random old woman, but I get the feeling that like he.

Steve

So anyway, so she. He's looking for a card cuz he's like, oh, maybe she left contact info or something like that, right? Or no, her son. He. She.

Steve

She has a son. I'll see if I can get her info. She has.

Nic

She. Yeah.

Nic

And she's says, you know, asks about Frederica and he goes, she great big fat person.

Steve

Oh, that's right. You're a great big fat person. God.

Nic

But yeah.

Nic

And then as Clarice is kind of looking around the apartment, it's like sewing stuff.

Steve

Yep. Moth.

Nic

Moth appears out of place with the.

Steve

Death'S head thing that she has been told exists only in Eastern Asia or whatever.

Nic

Crazy.

Steve

So this is when I wrote in my notebook she should call for backup. Because when he realizes that she knows and she draws her gun, he runs. And we know he's got like a hand cannon, like an absolute huge handgun that he's got. And she just follows him.

Steve

And I'm thinking to myself, like, you can't get local PD there. Maybe it would take too long. I don't know. But like in a situation like this where, yes, you're trying to save that victim, don't get me wrong, you don't want Catherine. First of all, she doesn't know Catherine's alive or not.

Nic

Right?

Steve

Okay.

Nic

And. And the FBI has kind of been. They say we want him for murder, not kidnapping.

Steve

Right?

Nic

That's what he had said. So it was kind of like, we don't really think she's alive right now.

Steve

Right? So.

Steve

So there's that. Plus they can tie him to all these other murders, right? So there's that he's not going anywhere because all his project is there. Like, he can't go anywhere, he can't relocate. Yeah.

Steve

So back up, call the local police, tell them what's going on. Watch the house. You know what I mean? Instead, she just drives. Head first.

Steve

Head first goes in, of course, makes for a better movie. When she gets down to the basement, into the well. She says the funniest thing to me when she says, katherine Marks, she goes, yes, I'm with the FBI. You're safe. In what fucking world is this chick safe?

Nic

She's very. I'm sorry, she's very confident, for sure.

Steve

We.

Nic

When she first kind of pulls her gun on Buffalo Bill, so he's getting her this business card, but we see that his gun's right around the corner. And she pulls her gun.

Nic

She's like, put your hands up. The way that he kind of litters those business cards is just adds such a creepy element to it. He doesn't drop it immediately. It's just kind of fluttering down to the ground almost like little moss or butterflies and shit. But just little motion that they add to this make it.

Steve

And it was good because I bet you, you know, whether or not it was super conscious by the character of the time, you know, it's very distracting. Right. She's going to notice that, which is going to give him that split second he needs to bolt around the corner. Whether that was fully intentional or not, either way, it absolutely works. And so then we're given one of the coolest scenes ever, which is they're down in the basement together.

Steve

So they're not up in the house where there's windows. And he is able to shut off all the power and all the lights. Okay. Okay. It is true pitch black.

Steve

Like, I don't know how often I've been in like a true pitch black room. There's always some little LED going off or something somewhere. Right. I have to like cover things in my bedroom with like bandanas at night or something to make sure they don't glow.

Nic

So, you know, there's like bugs and shit, pitch black.

Nic

But also all these creatures around.

Steve

Well, and you have, you know, first of all, you know, there's a well that you don't want to fall into. Yeah. You don't know what else is down there. I mean, it's absolutely terrifying to be that dark and in a totally unfamiliar place.

Steve

And of course, the. When he kidnapped Catherine, the night vision goggles, they come back into play. So now we see his view. This. I love this scene too.

Steve

We see his view through the night vision goggles of Clarice fumbling around in the dark. And here's the. This is the hubris of serial killers. Right. If he had just raised that gun and shot her, he could have done it without her reacting.

Steve

But he decides to follow her for a while.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And kind of of menace, because it's.

Nic

Too thrilling to watch her suffer because, I mean, another great, great bit by Jodie Foster is the way that she's kind of paNicing in a situation where you're fully blind here, you can't see what's going on. Trying to hear composed.

Nic

But you also have, like. It's crazy.

Steve

And her hand is. The hand with the gun is shaking super hard, which makes perfect sense. It's all very much.

Steve

Whatever study Jodie Foster did ahead of this is sort of like. Like, capture. What would it be like to react to the situation. She did a fantastic job. Obviously, there's no.

Steve

Nobody says this isn't a fantastic acting job, so. So, yeah, so he is following her around until finally we see again, kind of seeing his pov, the. His gun raise up. I guess one of the big downsides of it is that it's got a big, heavy hammer you have to cock back to. To prime the trigger.

Steve

So as he does that, she reacts perfectly. Hears the cocking gun, turns around, just, blam, blam, blam, blam, blam, blam, blam. Now, he also fires at her, but doesn't hit her.

Nic

Yeah, he hits like a. Breaks a window, so a little light starts to spill into the room.

Steve

Right, Exactly. But she also talks about, like, I think she gets, like, a gunpowder or like some kind of like, muzzle flash on her face. Like she's got a little. She's got a little injury, a little tiny one. But, like, nothing big, whatever.

Steve

But, yeah, she blows him away. And then, yeah, there's light in the room and he does the full, like, gurgle, burble, like, the blood coming up. I mean, he, you know, got. He. He is gone.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

And then it's like one of the things I thought of at this point was like, looking. Just looking back after I was watching the scene and looking back over just the last sequence, starting with her investigation of Frederica's home. From that point on, she really stumbled upon this. You know what I mean?

Steve

Yes, it was some good detective work, but it was kind of lucky as shit that that's who she got.

Nic

I mean, even with her correct interpretation of some of the messages Lecter was giving her, it was like. You got that exactly right the first time.

Steve

Like, I felt the same way about the yourself self storage thing. That was like, oh, okay.

Steve

I guess she's just brilliant. But, yeah, that's. That is the sort of end of the Buffalo Bill saga, right? And Catherine is rescued. She.

Nic

She walks out holding precious, which is kind of funny. Like, was that a. Maybe that was A good trauma bond maybe that. I mean, Precious needs a new home.

Steve

Yeah.

Steve

I mean, she's clearly adopting Precious. Like the way she talks about the dog, it's like, no, no dog's mind now, like kind of thing.

Nic

So one thing I would love in a scene like this is I would love the dog to be wrapped in a little foil blanket out of the trauma, you know.

Steve

Yeah, the little like I want like one of those for.

Nic

For a dog there.

Steve

Yeah.

Nic

So. So yeah. So Starling now is. Is graduating from the FBI academy and there's kind of a.

Nic

A little after party celebration type thing. And I don't know the exact how this time is passing because it really seems like she went straight from killing Buffalo Bill to taking her finals the next day and then graduating the next day because her wounds are still fresh and everything.

Steve

That's true. Yeah. She's got the.

Steve

Again, the thing on her cheek from the muzzle flash, the gunpowder or whatever. And so there's that.

Nic

Maybe you get automatic graduation from doing something like that.

Steve

I mean, she did solve of like the world at the time the country's biggest serial killer case. Right.

Steve

So I mean, that's got to be worth something.

Nic

Worth something for sure.

Steve

Yeah. So but, yeah. And then.

Steve

But she's told she has a phone call and so she briefly talks to Crawford, but then she has to. He's like, don't forget about your phone call. So she goes, and who is calling her wearing the worst wig in the history of the world? Hannibal Lecter from. I don't know if we know where he is.

Steve

The Caribbean.

Nic

I can't tell if it. I heard them speaking French. I mean, it seems somewhere like Algeria maybe somewhere in Africa or Haiti or something.

Steve

I feel like they were more like in the, you know, I don't know if the Dominican Republic, French, French guinea or something.

Steve

There's definitely like French or, you know, was it. It's probably not Saint Barts, but there's like the French. Saint Bart's is a French sign of Dutch. There's a bunch of the Caribbean nations do have French speakers. He was there some in that area, right.

Steve

A lot of palm trees, crap like that. So he's there and he basically. I love the line. He. Well, first of all, he tells her, I'm not coming after you.

Steve

Yeah, the world's a more interesting place with you in it. I'm not coming after you. Which is. I don't know if you can trust him, but I feel like you can. Like, I feel.

Steve

I feel like he would be honest.

Nic

About that, well, at least now she knows, like, okay, this guy could have killed anybody that he wanted to kill. So I. I must not be one of those people.

Steve

It must, right? If he wanted me dead, I'd be dead.

Steve

Sort of the thought. I think it's probably accurate. And then he says, like, I have to go. I'm having an old friend for dinner as Dr. Chilton.

Nic

Yeah.

Nic

He's watching Chilton deboard a plane and start walking around there. And then he slowly, you know, starts following him, like you said, with the wig that looks like someone went in and said, hey, can I get a Mark Davis wig?

Steve

Oh, God. Exactly. Pumpkin pie.

Nic

It's really. Yeah, dude, this is a pumpkin pie motherfucking haircut. But, yeah, so we're kind of left with that.

Steve

So.

Nic

So the main, like, killer in this story, Buffalo Bill, is done, but Lecter is still out there in the world and still has full plans of, you know, doing what he does.

Steve

That's the interesting thing about this, Right. As a crime story, the crime being investigated in the story is solved, but only by allowing a far more dangerous person out into the world. Right. Like, far more dangerous than Buffalo Bill is Hannibal Lecter. But that is the Silence of the Lambs.

Nic

Yeah. This awesome. Great conversation. Great movie. I mean.

Nic

Yeah. So I guess with ratings, you want me to kick her off, since this was my selection here.

Steve

Your pick. Go for first.

Nic

Yeah.

Nic

So watching it again, it doesn't lose a thing. Yeah. I really am impressed by everything about this movie. And again, it's really driven by two actors.

Steve

Sure.

Nic

And they did such an incredible job. The supporting cast is good as well, but, I mean, without the dynamic between Jody Foster and Anthony Hopkins, this wouldn't have been as effective. And some of the. These things that are so disturbing, the things that Gene Siskel didn't like about this movie, probably might have affected me more if it wasn't just such a good movie, you know? So, like, yeah, it's.

Nic

It's very disturbing subject matter. There's very upsetting imagery and stuff. And just thinking about it really is tough. But it is so well done. And the characters are just perfectly done, and you feel like you understand them, like, outside of the context of the film and everything.

Nic

So, yeah, I mean, I'm with the world on this one. And I think it was certainly deserving of a best picture, a best director. And this is a year that, like, Terminator 2 came out. Cape Fear, I think Beauty and the Beast was up against it. Bugsy, jfk, a lot of great stuff.

Nic

So, yeah, I mean, in strong competition. It held up. It still holds up. This movie does not feel dated at all. I mean, there's always technological things you.

Nic

You can point to with a crime movie where it's like if they had a cell phone or whatever, but it doesn't feel old. And. Yeah, I'm giving this one a five out of five. I'm with. I'm with everyone on this one.

Steve

Yeah. So, I mean, kind of not much to say outside of what you said there. I mean, yeah, well acted, well written. The source material, obviously, is fantastic. But the.

Steve

But the adaptation is great. Jonathan Demme kills it directing this. Like I said, that whole sequence, the misdirection of the FBI going to what they think is the killer's house and then Buffalo Bill dealing with him. That cutting back and forth and is just so well done. And it's so convincing, even knowing the reality of, like, I go into that sequence going, oh, this is where they do the misdirection.

Steve

It was still, like, tense and really well done, even though I know that they're not at the right house. You know, this is a really interesting thing. Yeah, acting's fantastic. Everything in this movie is fantastic. You know, except for some of the subject matter, which obviously is really brutal.

Steve

It's a really brutal movie. But what could you possibly ask for from this movie that it doesn't give you? Yeah, that's the thing that, for me, makes it a five out of five.

Nic

And it's like two hours on the daughter. It's like two minutes.

Nic

So it's not 2:45 like it. It is a watch, you know, perfect date night. Valentine's Day.

Steve

Exactly. Yeah.

Steve

So, yeah, you're a five. I'm a five. The two dads are 10 out of 10 on the silence.

Nic

We love our horror movies. We've been, you know, banging out some good rate.

Nic

I mean, we've had some great horror movies.

Steve

That's true. I mean, that's. I noticed my own ratings. I gave a five to Nightmare on Elm Street.

Steve

I gave a five to the Thing.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So. And then now this one as well. So cool.

Nic

What's our next five?

Steve

Right. Yeah. So. Well, I mean, I don't know about that because I'm gonna wrap up Shocktoberfest with a little bit of a different thing.

Steve

And here's something that I've yet to do. This will be our 34th episode, I believe.

Nic

Nice.

Steve

When we. No, 33rd.

Steve

33rd episode. When we go. Lost track of a second. We're gonna do a movie that I've never seen. And I believe you've never seen.

Steve

We'll get to it. Second, I tell you what it is. But like, I'm pretty sure you've never seen this one and I haven't and yet I'm picking it. And the reason is, is that I know the backstory behind it. There is like a lore around this movie.

Steve

This episode will come out a couple days before Halloween this year.

Nic

Okay.

Steve

When this episode drops, the one that we're talking about to talk about. And so it just felt really fitting and it involves somebody that we have already done a few movies of and absolutely adore. So we're going to go and check out a movie that John.

Steve

John Carpenter was the producer for and wrote part of the score. He like co wrote the score. We love a good John Carpenter score, right? Absolutely. This though is a misfire on so many levels.

Steve

This movie was. It was an attempt to take John Carpenter's Halloween series and turn it into an anthology about Halloween.

Nic

Okay.

Steve

Rather than a series about a serial a killer named Michael Myers. Right.

Steve

So this is Halloween 3 season of the Witch from 1982. Michael Myers does not appear in this movie. Everybody who saw this movie in the theater in 1982 went to it assuming Michael Myers would appear at some point. He never does because he's not in the movie. It is a batshit crazy story about a maniacal mask maker trying to take over the world by killing as many children as possible in Halloween night.

Steve

That's the plot basically, that I, as I understand it of the movie. I've never seen it. So we are going to both take a first look. I'm assuming.

Nic

I know I've never.

Nic

I'm very intrigued.

Steve

Most people have not seen.

Nic

Yeah.

Steve

So we are going to to take a pair of first looks at Halloween 3 season of the Witch next week to wrap up Shocktoberfest.

Nic

Cannot wait.

Steve

I don't know you. You'll either be thanking me or hating me. Get together to talk about this one. So. All right.

Steve

That about wraps it up. So if you like what you and we hope you do, please consider heading over to Apple or Spotify and leaving us a five star review. It really helps new folks find the show. If you want to drop us a line, share your thoughts on an episode, tell us what we got wrong or suggest a movie we should do next like our friend Jeff did. We talked at the beginning of the episode.

Steve

You can do so at the show@2dads1movie.com. That's the number two and the number one. You can also follow us on Instagram @2dads1movie. Once again, this has been the Silence of the Lambs, another episode of 2 Dads 1 Movie. I'm Steve.

Nic

And I'm Nic.

Steve

Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week.

Nic

Thanks, everyone.